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View Full Version : New farcry screenes Offset mapping, very interesting


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freak77power
05-31-04, 09:58 AM
http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=4997&head=1&comments=1

http://www.nofeargaming.com/pafiledb/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=112

This effect can do all NVIDIA GFX5200 and up and Radeon 9500 and Up card.

Click on second link, you will see that looks like DM is applied. Offset Mapping is done via PS2.0. I guess DX9.0 is hiding many things. There is also virtual mapping available in r3xx and r4xx core...

freak77power
05-31-04, 10:01 AM
Also you can download and see the thing in action...

euan
05-31-04, 10:08 AM
all we need now is some benchmarks, then the fun begins... (mag)

Blacklash
05-31-04, 11:34 AM
Score one for Hanners and crew. Good point, nice images.

Nv40
05-31-04, 03:46 PM
offset mapping is a hack... to simulate extra detail .. by offsetting textures ..it looks good.. actually looks extremely similar to bumpmaps,which can easily look identical to those screenshots. in the other hand True DIsplacement mapping can only be done by VS3.0.

you can't do this without VS3.0...

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6134&stc=1

Crytek have never said that their mod will only be possible in SM3.0 ,tey told many times in the geforce launch that those effects were possible in SM2.0 and 3.0. (albeit in Sm3.0 it can be done more quickly ,efficiently without a big penalty in performance.) they have told that the SM3.0 in farcry will be mostly performance enhancements. but thats only *their* mod implementation ,games that truly use SM3.0 potential . *will look diferent* (better effects )contrary to the wishes of some ATI folks .

here is what Crytek told about what can be done in PS3.0 vs that can't be done PS2.0.

Andrey Khonich – Crytek, Makers of Far Cry

GD: A lot of attention has been paid to NVIDIA's support of Pixel Shader 3.0 - can you specifically think of anything PS 3.0 can be used for that can't be done in PS 2.0?

Andrey: In VS3.0 Shader model actually is possible to support general displacement mapping (with smart Shader design when vertex Shader has to do something during waiting for texture access).

In PS3.0 shaders it’s possible to decrease number of shaders using dynamic branching (one Shader for general lighting) and in such way decrease number of Shader switches and as result increase speed, and also we can utilize dynamic conditional early reject for some cases in both PS and VS and this also will increase speed. As to NV40 generally possible to use co-issues better to take advantage of super-scalar architecture (we can execute 4 instructions per cycle in a single pipeline).

- Handle several light sources in single pixel shaders by using dynamic loops in PS3.0.
- Decrease number of passes for 2-sided lighting using additional face register in PS3.0.
- Use geometry instancing to decrease number of draw-calls (remove CPU limitations as much as possible).
- Unrestricted dependent texture read capabilities to produce more advanced post-processing effects and other in-game complex particles/surfaces effects (like water).
- Full swizzle support in PS3.0 to make better instructions co-issue and as result speedup performance.
- Increase quality of lighting calculations using 32 bit precision in pixel shaders on NV40.
- Take advantage of using 10 texture interpolators in PS3.0 Shader model to reduce number of passes in some cases.
- Easily do multiple pass high-dynamic-range rendering on FP16 targets.
- Speed up post-processing a lot by using MRT capabilities and mip-mapping support on non-power-of-two textures.




i only bolded the parts that apply to the above screenshot.
ATI simply has -no choice- (since they are behind in features) to downplay SM3.0 because -they dont support it- period. Nvidia praise it.. of course ..they are very proud of it. just like ATI was about Sm2.0. the diference is that SM3.0 like SM2.0 is a Microsoft standar. so Nvidia praise is justified. and it was designed by Microsoft with the help of game developers and all IHV to move DX9 graphics to a new level. so make no mistake SM3.0 will make a diference and will be with us for a lot of time until SM4.0 which will not come anytime soon until ~2006.

ATi simply wants people to "stay away from it" ,make them believe that Sm3.0 is not going to make a diference ,simply because they dont support it ,and it will hurt its sales if people discover the real benefits of it.

the only valid arguments againts SM3.0 is not if its going to make a diference or not .it will. .if graphics will be better or not.. they will. but *when* we will see the better graphics or effects. and also *performance* if the advanced graphics -that only the NV40 can do- will be fast enough for realtime games ,rather than cool Dx9 demos.

if no developers support it ,then it will make no diference of course.. same with Sm2.0 or SM1.0 .. only will make a diference if it is used...if at least a few developers implement Sm3.0 this year ,in their games with greater effects with good performance it will make a diference much sooner than everyone imagined . the Timing for Sm3.0 is perfect ,because most game development by the end of this year will be DX9.and Sm3.0 implentation in games is very easy according to game developers.

pat777
05-31-04, 03:56 PM
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=6134&stc=1

CRytek already told that the SM3.0 in farcry will be mostly performance enhancements ,but that the effects they implemented can be done in SM2.0 too. with less efficiency. bu games that truly use SM3.0.. will look diferent (better effects )contrary to the wishes of some ATI folks . ATI simply has no choice to downplay SM3.0 because they dont support it. Nvidia praise it.. of course ..they are proud of it.. but here the diference is that SM3.0 is a Microsoft standar.. and it was designed by Microsoft with the help of developers and all IHV to move DX9 graphics to a new level.

ATi simply wants people to "stay away from it" ,make them believe that Sm3.0 is not going to make a diference ,simply because they dont support it ,and it will hurt its sales if people discover how the benefits of it. the only valid argument againts SM3.0 is not if its going to make a diference or not ..if graphics will be better ,but *when* we will see it. if no developers support it ,then it will make no diference of course.. same with Sm2.0.. only will make a diference if it is used...if a few developers implement Sm3.0 ,in their games with greater effects and performance it will.
Hold on, there's one thing I agree with ATI on shader model 3.0. It will hurt a lot if developers implement it. Of course, the only thing it'll hurt is ATI. :)

Morrow
05-31-04, 03:57 PM
http://www.elitebastards.com/page.php?pageid=4997&head=1&comments=1

http://www.nofeargaming.com/pafiledb/pafiledb.php?action=file&id=112

This effect can do all NVIDIA GFX5200 and up and Radeon 9500 and Up card.

Click on second link, you will see that looks like DM is applied. Offset Mapping is done via PS2.0. I guess DX9.0 is hiding many things. There is also virtual mapping available in r3xx and r4xx core...

Virtual displacement mapping (also called, offset or parallax mapping) is just that: "virtual". This means the object is actually not changed anyhow, it's just that the texture is rendered in a way so that it looks like being a 3D profile although everything remains flat (looking at extreme angles at virtual DM reveals the trick). This has nothing to do with the displacement mapping defined in DX9.0c and currently only available on the nv40 cards.


Offset mapping in itself only needs 1.1 pixel shaders. PS2.0 is only required for FarCry because of the lighting effects use in combination with offset mapping. So basically a GF3 could do the same effect but without the enhanced lighting.

Lfctony
05-31-04, 04:20 PM
Looks excellent, but you cant really test it because the level is empty, it would be too easy on video cards and second, you can't disable the textures that have this effect on. So its always on.

muzz
05-31-04, 04:28 PM
NV40
I personally haven't seen any folks be they ATi or NV fans WISH that 3.0 won't make things look better.
Where do you get this stuff?

Of course we ALL want better effects.

Nv40
05-31-04, 04:56 PM
NV40
I personally haven't seen any folks be they ATi or NV fans WISH that 3.0 won't make things look better.
Where do you get this stuff?

Of course we ALL want better effects.

ATi themselves are downplaying Sm3.0. where have you been lately?
and many gamers believe it.. and you see here and there articles ,that indirectly can be seen by people "as proof" that SM3.0 is not neccesary. :screwy:

muzz
05-31-04, 05:05 PM
Mostly what I see is folks stating that 3.0 will not be utilized much in this generation of cards.
I fall into that belief group, regardless of the marketing list that continues to be trumpetted.
That doesn't mean that we don't want what it has to offer.
There is hardly use of 2.0 yet for crying out loud.

RobHague
05-31-04, 05:37 PM
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=29291

Check out the demo, shows these techniques being used to some small extent.

I think though something worth mentioning is that Offset-Mapping is doing something that looks visually simular to displacement mapping, which is the only real thing SM 3.0 offers in terms of 'graphical enhancement' that one will notice. Thing is that the FX/R3xx/R4xx can do this even down to the lowley FX 5200 - were as the Nv40 is the only card offering SM 3.0 support at the moment....

Im with Muzz, i think SM 3.0 wont be utilized until the next gen in any worthwhile way, or maybe even the generation after that... like Muzz said PS 2.0 is hardley used right now and the 9700 and NV30 introduced that....

I think we will see 'token' support and NVIDIA will play it up as much as they can, while ATI will do the opposite. Then the next gen will arrive and both cards will have it onboard and NVIDIA will find something else to use as market leverage and ATI will say how great SM 3.0 is.... oh and developers will then have support for it on BOTH types of widley used graphics card and may actually think seriously about implimenting it more. As it stands now why would any games developer impliment something that alienates a good 80-90% (more?!?) of its users (in terms of, we have something really nifty in our game but u cant see it unless you have an NV4x) and offers no real advantages? Unless NVIDIA offer them a lot of money of course.

If the NV4x is carried down to its budget and mainstream line then i guess that will give them a bit more incentive, but i still ask - How well can the 6800 Ultra run games using SM 3.0 and if NVIDIA release a mainstream card how well will that run it with 4/8/12 pipes and a serious clock decrease?

freak77power
05-31-04, 05:44 PM
r420 can do real DM but not through VS...

DM is great thing, and if you have applied DM for the wall, for example, you almost don't need AF to be applied to that wall :)

RobHague
05-31-04, 05:48 PM
Oh rite, well even more reason for SM 3.0 to be a bit premature then. Although the demo's there show that you dont even need DM really, well...

Oh and I think we need a slogan/word for these features you know... something like, oh how about...

Marketygimikybutnotquiteusfuly ? :D

Nv40
05-31-04, 06:08 PM
r420 can do real DM but not through VS...

DM is great thing, and if you have applied DM for the wall, for example, you almost don't need AF to be applied to that wall :)


the more you repeat something will not make it true..
DM is a great thing ,that is not supported by the the R420 or any other non vs3.0 hardware. real DM works with displaced geometry.. only VS3.0 allows that. virtual or offset or any other trick only displace textures using pixel shaders .. is just a simulation. the virtual DM the R420 support is not any better than the one a radeon 8500/geforce3 can do . its very limited to the places it can be used.. since its a fake.. and it doesnt look as good as real displaced geometry. which again is only a VS3.0 feature.

pat777
05-31-04, 06:12 PM
the more you repeat something will not make it true..
DM works with displaced geometry.. only VS3.0 allows that.
virtual or offset only displace textures using pixel shaders .. is just a simulation. the virtual DM the R420 support is not any better than the one a radeon 8500/geforce3 can do . its limited to the places it can be used.. and it doesnt look as good as real displaced geometry. which again is only a VS3.0 feature.
I think 8500 and 9700 do real DM(truform) through a hardware tesselator. ATI took away the feature since 9800/X800.

D.K.Tronics
05-31-04, 06:12 PM
As it stands now why would any games developer impliment something that alienates a good 80-90%

How is the Farcry patch with PS3, as an example, alienating ANYONE from enjoying Farcry with PS2 ?

Surely, you can say the same for PS2 ? Especially when the biggest percentage of cards out there are still only PS1.1

Do you really think developers are going to use PS3 only ?

Surely, there will always be a ps2 fallback mode ?

So where's the alienating ?

I look forward to PS3 support. And by the time ATI ever bother to implement it in their own hardware, I'm guessing NVidia will have perfected, and optimized PS3, to a tee.

RobHague
05-31-04, 06:15 PM
How is the Farcry patch with PS3, as an example, alienating ANYONE from enjoying Farcry with PS2 ?

Surely, you can say the same for PS2 ? Especially when the biggest percentage of cards out there are still only PS1.1

Do you really think developers are going to use PS3 only ?

Surely, there will always be a ps2 fallback mode ?

So where's the alienating ?

I look forward to PS3 support. And by the time ATI ever bother to implement it in their own hardware, I'm guessing NVidia will have perfected, and optimized PS3, to a tee.

You didnt read what i put in brackets after it :)
in terms of, we have something really nifty in our game but u cant see it unless you have an NV4x

the more you repeat something will not make it true..
DM works with displaced geometry.. only VS3.0 allows that.
virtual or offset only displace textures using pixel shaders .. is just a simulation. the virtual DM the R420 support is not any better than the one a radeon 8500/geforce3 can do . its limited to the places it can be used.. and it doesnt look as good as real displaced geometry. which again is only a VS3.0 feature.

We lack several bits of information though....

How well can the 6800 run SM 3.0, and using DM in a game how much would that impact performance? A 'demo' is one thing, a proper game is another.

How may software developers will take SM 3.0 on board to make the feature worthwhile? Which then leads back to the first point actually...

How will that SM 3.0 performance scale with the mainstream cards based off the NV40? Because if the 6800U has trouble running it at top performance then any mainstream card will be usless. Also if NVIDIA dont take SM 3.0 down to teh mainstream thats going to leave all of 3 high-priced cards made by one brand with support for it....

OWA
05-31-04, 06:18 PM
Marketygimikybutnotquiteusfuly ?
I don't think this applies b/c they're supporting something that is part of DX. I usually think of a marketing gimmick as something possibly proprietary that might or not might be supported by developers. That is, supporting something that is part of standard doesn't really seem too much like a gimmick to me.

Although, I guess if you go by a) an important feature that is not immediately apparent b) an ingenious and usually new scheme or angle then I guess gimmick could fit. I guess I see your point.

Nv40
05-31-04, 06:22 PM
I think 8500 and 9700 do real DM(truform) through a hardware tesselator. ATI took away the feature since 9800/X800.


ATi "trueform" is not true.. its a marketing name for a feature that fakes detail ,making more rounded he shape of some textures . and it was taken away by ATI because of that. it was a stopgap for very low poly quake3 /UT2k3 style characters .. to make characters look less blocky. it useless once you have high poly characters ,realtime shadows and lighting.( DX9 games) if there is something that deserve the name of TRUEFORM is real DM in VS3.0 . because is made by real polygons ,real displaced geometry like the one possible in the NV40.

RobHague
05-31-04, 06:23 PM
@OWA

No i just mean NVIDIA making it seem more important than it actually is right now. Which is understandable, its what sets them apart from ATI's offerings so you can see why they would want to milk it.

@D.K.Tronics - I missed that last bit you put in ur message...
I look forward to PS3 support. And by the time ATI ever bother to implement it in their own hardware, I'm guessing NVidia will have perfected, and optimized PS3, to a tee.

Hummmm well, ATI brought out their first PS 2.0 card which worked so well that even the 9700 runs games using PS 2.0 better/just as good as NVIDIA's last latest product... where as the FX 5800 (Nv3x) which was NVIDIA's first attempt of course was a complete wash out... and the second and third revamped attempt's still didnt do much to help...

So i think ur statements quite unfair indeed. :|

"trueform" is not true.. its a markketing name for a feature that fakes detail and it was taken away by ATI because of that. it was a stopgap for very low poly characters .. to look less blocky. is there is something that deserve the name of TRUEFORM is real polygons ,real geometry. real DM like the one possible in VS3.0 is Trueform.

TruForm didnt fake detail, its designed to boost the amount of polygons on low-polygon models to make them look smoother (great for older games, like Half-Life). So it is REAL polygons, real gemoetry.... :confused:

Anyway it was implimented in hardware on the 8500 but was taken out of the later cards and left to be done in software. Possibly to make room on the VPU for other more important things or because they thought that the 9700 could cope with it?. But it was never 'taken away', and is definatley not a 'gimmik' as you can use it without the game needing to be programed for it - so it its a feature that can actually be used.

:EDIT: Found this quick description...
TRUFORM II (TM)
The latest incarnation of ATI's innovative higher order surface technology. It is designed to smooth out the curved surface of 3D characters, objects, and terrain by increasing the polygon count through a process called "tessellation". By taking advantage of the massive vertex processing power of the RADEON 9700, it delivers more natural looking 3D scenes without requiring any changes to existing artwork.

muzz
05-31-04, 06:51 PM
VDM, trueform are just hacks right NV40?

Quote:

the more you repeat something will not make it true

End quote

Do they look better than flat or blocky?
I think they do/did.
Maybe I need glasses.......

I guessing this is because NV didn't come up with these things/ are not the only crew doing it.

Nv40
05-31-04, 06:55 PM
TruForm didnt fake detail, its designed to boost the amount of polygons on low-polygon models to make them look smoother (great for older games, like Half-Life). So it is REAL polygons, real gemoetry.... :confused:

Anyway it was implimented in hardware on the 8500 but was taken out of the later cards and left to be done in software. Possibly to make room on the VPU for other more important things or because they thought that the 9700 could cope with it?. But it was never 'taken away', and is definatley not a 'gimmik' as you can use it without the game needing to be programed for it - so it its a feature that can actually be used.

:EDIT: Found this quick description...
TRUFORM II (TM)
The latest incarnation of ATI's innovative higher order surface technology. It is designed to smooth out the curved surface of 3D characters, objects, and terrain by increasing the polygon count through a process called "tessellation". By taking advantage of the massive vertex processing power of the RADEON 9700, it delivers more natural looking 3D scenes without requiring any changes to existing artwork.



its the good thing about PR marketing material ,that anyone can claim anything and people will believe in it . just like the "unlimited" pixel shaders of Fbuffer ,(never supported in ATI drivers or by Microsoft) in the lifetime of the Radeon9800.. just like SuperSampling AA suport ,that ATI told they support .."MPEG2 hardware encoding" which later in was told by developers that was made in software in the R300. (cough) FUll TRIlinear by default.. (cough) ..the ATi/valve stunt_$ about "High DYnamic Rendering" in R3xx which now suddenly the real game will not support. so you need to be very carefull about features that any IHV advertise to support..

most of the timesif a new "feature" its not an standar anywhere and is marketed as too good to be true,then ignore it completly what the PR marketing paper says .really good features are fully embraced by Microsoft and embraced by *all* IHV and game developers.or by the Proffesional CG film industry. read carmack plans and his opinions about ATi "trueform" where he summarize it very simple in few words -> it sucks..

notice that Nvidia support ATi MRT extensions (first introduced in the R300) in the NV40.. they give credit to ATI for being the first to use it ,(because they could simply create their own extensions for it) when something is really usefull , ATI or NVidia or others IHV will support it too.

this is not in any way saying that is bad to support features that might help with some games.. im all for progress no matter how small or little it is the diference.. but IHV misleading people about features and things that X or Y hardware can do (being false the claims) just to increase their sales ..is common to see these days.

pat777
05-31-04, 06:59 PM
TruForm didnt fake detail, its designed to boost the amount of polygons on low-polygon models to make them look smoother (great for older games, like Half-Life). So it is REAL polygons, real gemoetry....

Anyway it was implimented in hardware on the 8500 but was taken out of the later cards and left to be done in software. Possibly to make room on the VPU for other more important things or because they thought that the 9700 could cope with it?. But it was never 'taken away', and is definatley not a 'gimmik' as you can use it without the game needing to be programed for it - so it its a feature that can actually be used.
Truform was taken away from the 9800/X800 because ATI realized how useless it was. Vertex Texture Look-Ups >>>>>>> Hardware tesselator.

D.K.Tronics
05-31-04, 07:23 PM
So i think ur statements quite unfair indeed.

It's YOU that ain't being fair. You really think NVidia are going to do another NV30 ?
Comeon, stop being such a fanboy, Rob.