X800's Filtering and Far Cry [Archive]

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Blacklash

06-05-04, 07:10 PM

These are Far Cry PNGs they are very large, most are near or above 2mb. I ran the game with everything on very high/ultra high. The card at 1280x1024 with 4xAA/4xAF(CP at application pref, set in game). Why so low? To show you what kind of IQ you can get with these settings. As always draw your own conclusions. Again these are actual in game shots from my rig.

http://members.cox.net/blacklash/FarCry0236.png

http://members.cox.net/blacklash/FarCry0240.png

http://members.cox.net/blacklash/FarCry0243.png

http://members.cox.net/blacklash/FarCry0245.png

http://members.cox.net/malficar3/FarCry0246.png

http://members.cox.net/malficar3/FarCry0249.png

http://members.cox.net/malficar3/FarCry0253.png

http://members.cox.net/malficar3/FarCry0257.png

http://members.cox.net/malficar3/FarCry0259.png

http://members.cox.net/malficar4/FarCry0228.png

http://members.cox.net/malficar4/FarCry0230.png

http://members.cox.net/malficar4/FarCry0218.png

http://members.cox.net/malficar4/FarCry0217.png

EDIT: and why not two L2 shots of a cute DE

http://members.cox.net/malficar2/Shot00419.png

http://members.cox.net/malficar2/Shot00361.png

anzak

06-05-04, 08:32 PM

Thanks for the screens! :thumbsup: Im really tempted to buy a X800pro and am curious, about what FPS was far cry running at when you took the shots?

Skinner

06-05-04, 09:02 PM

These are Far Cry PNGs they are very large, most are near or above 2mb. I ran the game with everything on very high/ultra high. The card at 1280x1024 with 4xAA/4xAF. Why so low? To show you what kind of IQ you can get with these settings. As always draw your own conclusions. Again these are actual in game shots from my rig.

It could be me, but those shots look better then my 9800, sharper and more detailed...

Blacklash

06-05-04, 09:28 PM

Thanks for the screens! :thumbsup: Im really tempted to buy a X800pro and am curious, about what FPS was far cry running at when you took the shots?

Here's a trial run with the 3dcenter 'pier' bench. It was default clockspeed. 1280x1024 4xAA/8xAF, All very high/ultra high.

TimeDemo Play Started , (Total Frames: 3726, Recorded Time: 67.36s)
!TimeDemo Run 0 Finished.
Play Time: 70.54s, Average FPS: 52.82
Min FPS: 37.54 at frame 826, Max FPS: 76.27 at frame 1844
Average Tri/Sec: 9423220, Tri/Frame: 178407
Recorded/Played Tris ratio: 0.80

I rarely see the high 30s(37/39), Most often I am around 51-63FPS. The game is very fluid.

EDIT: There's the first part of the bunker level at the same settings, 1280x1024 4xAA/8xAF. All very high/ultra high, stock clock settings. Done with Fraps>
2004-06-06 08:42:34 - FarCry
Frames: 9451 - Time: 149859ms - Avg: 63.065 - Min: 31 - Max: 135

Arioch

06-06-04, 11:50 AM

I am a eye candy freak and I think the IQ in Far Cry looks pretty good to me on my X800 Pro. If it's degraded then I can't tell.

Ruined

06-07-04, 01:27 PM

Jarred

06-07-04, 01:36 PM

Ruined

06-07-04, 01:39 PM

I'm noticing it a bit on both, but not so much on the 9700

Yeh there is a bit on the 9700PRO but its much milder.

Jarred

06-07-04, 01:44 PM

Yeh there is a bit on the 9700PRO but its much milder.

well, I guess it's more official now. Like others have said, I don't wanna hear the excuse "It looks the same" anymore.

Vapor Trail

06-07-04, 01:45 PM

Even better, videos from Beyond3d! :)

x800PRO - note texture shimmering on wall
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCryx800ProAA_Divx.avi

9700PRO - no shimmering on wall
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCry9700Pro_Divx.avi

I'm seeing shimmering on both. It is more noticeable on the x800 but maybe because of higher framerate or different resolution. The movies are obviously not made at the same res. There are many spots in Farcry where there visual anomilies occur so I'm not sure if this is a problem with ATI's filtering or Farcry or a combination of both. Since the same shimmering is seen on the 9700 I would tend to think that this is something weird going on with Farcry.

Ruined

06-07-04, 02:07 PM

I'm seeing shimmering on both. It is more noticeable on the x800 but maybe because of higher framerate or different resolution. The movies are obviously not made at the same res. There are many spots in Farcry where there visual anomilies occur so I'm not sure if this is a problem with ATI's filtering or Farcry or a combination of both. Since the same shimmering is seen on the 9700 I would tend to think that this is something weird going on with Farcry.

The maker of the movies said both were captured at 800x600 and halved to 400x300 for encoding, so they were the same resolution.

He also said that the shimmering you see in the video is representative of the increased shimmering he saw in the x800 over the 9700PRO during gameplay.

rewt

06-07-04, 02:15 PM

There are many spots in Farcry where there visual anomilies occur so I'm not sure if this is a problem with ATI's filtering or Farcry or a combination of both. Since the same shimmering is seen on the 9700 I would tend to think that this is something weird going on with Farcry.

I'd say its ATi drivers. I have never noticed anything like this with nVidia cards.

Sazar

06-07-04, 02:25 PM

both of them have shimmering... the 9700pro shot has a slower walking dood (probably hopped up on something :eek: ) which may explain the slightly less shimmering...

I don't recall shimmering when I play far cry... i wonder if its the res and compression that caused it ?

Vapor Trail

06-07-04, 02:28 PM

I'd say its ATi drivers. I have never noticed anything like this with nVidia cards.

I'm not sure its ATI's drivers and since Nvidia cards have their own batch of visual problems especially with the 1.1 patch I'm not ready to give Farcry's coding a pass on this one either.

Since the shimmering is also present on the 9700 I'm not sure you can fault ATI's filtering on this one. It is more noticeable on the x800 but that could be for other reasons like increased framerate.

Ruined

06-07-04, 03:27 PM

Here are high resolution 800x600 versions. A bit harder to see here since there is no gamma correction, but still more shimmering on the x800PRO than the 9700PRO.

X800:
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCryx800ProHiRes_Divx.avi

9700PRO:
http://www.reflectonreality.com/images/r420/FarCry9700ProHiRes_Divx.avi

Note that with the lower gamma the 9700PRO's shimmer is barely visible.

Sazar

06-07-04, 03:43 PM

again they are walking @ different speeds... though it is clearer that there is less shimmering on the slower shot than the faster one...

neomoz

06-07-04, 08:17 PM

Well i and others have noticed shimmering on 9700/9800 pro cards, this was tracked down to the fact that the radeon cards only use 5 bits per component for their bilinear filtering vs 8bit on older cards, which can lead to poorer filtering ie shimmering and crawling. With the X800 pro since they're using brilinear, you can see the areas where they're underfiltering will shimmer more and you'll get like shimmer mip map bands, so instead of seeing hard mip lines, you'll have areas where the texture shimmers in a similar mip map band fashion. These sorts of shimmers seem more apparent on gravel like textures, where underfiltering on those types of textures produces a lot more noise and shimmer than other textures.

Grestorn

06-08-04, 04:33 AM

again they are walking @ different speeds... though it is clearer that there is less shimmering on the slower shot than the faster one...
"They" is actually me.

And, no, "we're" not walking at different speeds. In both videos I used "V" to get prone. That way the movement is slow enough.

That the videos seem to move at a somewhat different rate is simply the result of a slight difference in the capturing speed of the two machines I used. Most notably the gfx board of course, the 9700Pro is just slower than the x800. The reduction of the framerate during the recording also causes the movie to replay much faster than when I actually recorded it.

But this has no effect whatsoever on the texture shimmering. In fact, the recording of the video reduces the shimmering effect a little, because the slower you move the more you can see the shimmering.

fleshonbone

06-10-04, 12:31 AM

Sazar

06-10-04, 12:36 AM

"They" is actually me.

And, no, "we're" not walking at different speeds. In both videos I used "V" to get prone. That way the movement is slow enough.

That the videos seem to move at a somewhat different rate is simply the result of a slight difference in the capturing speed of the two machines I used. Most notably the gfx board of course, the 9700Pro is just slower than the x800. The reduction of the framerate during the recording also causes the movie to replay much faster than when I actually recorded it.

But this has no effect whatsoever on the texture shimmering. In fact, the recording of the video reduces the shimmering effect a little, because the slower you move the more you can see the shimmering.

k... I was wondering about the difference in speed...

I'll try it on my system and check it out... just haven't bothered installing far cry back on yet :(

Blacklash

06-10-04, 01:37 AM

Malficar,

Based on as much information as I can gather, and thanks to lurking in this forum (thanks for the ss's and info) for quite awhile, I purchased a Radeon X800 Pro this afternoon and am hoping to get it tommorrow.

Anyways, I was planning on waiting for the 6800U but I am not that impressed with the IQ compared to the X800, and considering the price tag, I'm hoping that my A64 3200+ will be enough to pick up where the X800 Pro leaves off.

As I've always owned nvidia, part of my misgivings in the past towards ATI was openGL support. I always thought that ATI had problems with opengl? Forgive my ignorance, as I haven't paid attention to ATI for quite a few years.

I'm sure the D3D games are all awesome for the X800, but have you tried any opengl ported games?

Any SS's?

I do not own CoD but I actually downloaded the demo to try the new cat 4.6's. It was smooth, good looking, and very playable. I was running it at 1280x1024@85 4xAA/8xAF. Remember, if you own this game, you will need to reset trilinear in the game, as it defaults to bilinear when installed or switching a video card. I also own and enjoy NWN which looks fine and plays well on the X800. When I get some time I will give you hard numbers and perhaps some screens.

I would suggest picking up 'Ati Tray Tools' from Guru3d. If you play games like Halo you will need it address Ati's AF which only applies trilinear texture filtering to stage zero. In most games this is a non issue, and if the game can set the level of AF rather than having to force it from the driver control panel then it is also a non issue.

Among other tweaks the 'Tray tool' allows overclocking. It is my heart felt opinion the X800Pro is extremely underclocked. I have seen reviewers set the core from 520 to a staggering 570. I have personally run my card at 540/1120 with no problems ,44 degrees idle and 58 degrees underload. Then again I tainted the bottom of my heat sink fan with arctic silver five and applied it to my GPU.If you do OC do it slow and make sure you have a well cooled case/card. I strongly suspect your card will be at least capable of 520/1100. At that speed and on a decent rig I do not see the card having any trouble running the upcoming DX9 titles many people are sweating. I must say though, OC at your own risk, you never know what may occur.

Ati is improving their OGL. No it is not as fast as nVidia's at this time. It is very playable. I was shocked at how smooth the drivers and the X800 work together. Ati has certainly come a long way.

It is good that you realize both the Pro and the XT can be limited by poor systems/slower CPU's. Many people damn their video cards when it is their system choking it down. I think your athlon and the X800Pro will work together very well, especially after you put a modest OC on it.

If you have a nVidia card on your system now I would advise using driver cleaner 3 in safe mode(f8) to clean all of the nVidia drivers from your system. You can get it from the Driver Heaven web site and Guru3d.(I believe) Kill the power, unplug your rig, then switch your cards. Plug it back in. When you reboot hit delete to go into your bios screen to make sure the AGP aperture is set where you want it. I have also found this to be the best way for the system to adapt to its new friend, aka your add in.

When you do go ahead and load windows reinstall directx9.0.b, reboot. Your driver and control panel.(get the cat 4.6's from the Ati site), Reboot. Make sure your monitor is recognized, if not reinstall its drivers/inf, then the DVD decoder.(On the CD that came with the card), Reboot. Then the MMC and DAO if you wish. I actually do not use them. Use custom install for all of this rather than express so you can select what you wish. I use NVDVD and Windows media player. You can decide if you wish to. I would ignore hydravision, it is for two monitor support and is lack luster IMO. This is not the 'best' way to do it, but the most trouble free I have found through experience.

Keep the Pro and test it. If you are not impressed, send it back. For the cash it's a good card. If you want more advice on how to tweak it, ask. I know the strengths and weaknesses of the card fairly well now.

EDIT: I apologize for any typos and such errors, it is late, and I did not want to ignore your query.

fleshonbone

06-10-04, 03:33 AM

Thanks man, I really appreciate the response and tips. I have NVR (an nvidia driver removal tool) and I have used driver cleaner in the past - I'll get v3 and give it a go - already have the drivers d/l'd, I will check out the tray tool you mentioned...I presume it's similar to ATI's tray tool? At least I know they used to have one quite some time ago - simply allowed you to alter card settings without diving into display properties, no?

I do own CoD, as well as Farcry, and I'll let you know how they run with my A64 (hopefully!) tomorrow.

Thanks again,

flesh

fleshonbone

06-10-04, 01:54 PM

Quick question - does ATI have the same timing problems (ie reverting to default 60mhz when launching a game) with Win 2000/XP as Nvidia did? (Not sure if this was a Windows prob or Nvidia problem).

If so, does the ATITool have refresh overrides?

I'm hoping the card comes via FedEx today! :smoking2:

EDIT: BTW - I have a CoolerMaster 201 case (read: well ventilated, plenty of cooling/fans) so I will conduct some o/c tests with the x800pro - I actually have a couple heatsinks that I could use - I'm nauseatingly prepared for this aren't I? Sick, I know.....now if you could just open up those other 4 pipes we would be in business

Blacklash

06-10-04, 07:25 PM

These are Painkiller shots from the X800Pro, 1280x960 4xAF/16xAF,The are reduced quality so I could get most of them to 50-70kb size for the guys on dial up to be able to see. The largest one is only 103kb.Most are dark because much Painkiller is like that, and the Asylum level is made that way.You can always save and brighten them if you wish. Still some are creepy/cool.

http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-05-24-18.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-05-43-50.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-06-19-60.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-07-48-85.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-07-50-82.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-08-18-42.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-13-54-79.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-15-07-17.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-15-13-01.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-15-57-25.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-16-12-14.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-16-56-89.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-17-17-96.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-17-41-51.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-19-52-14.jpg
http://members.cox.net/malficar2/PainGame%202004-06-08%2006-20-43-87.jpg

And yes some of these shots look odd because I am shooting these fellows off of the ceiling. :D

fleshonbone

06-10-04, 08:04 PM

Well, I just talked to Mwave and my card will be here tomorrow (I ordered it at 6pm last night so it wasn't processed in time). For anyone interested, mwave.com has the Radeon X800 Pro *in stock* for $406.

Malficar,

the screenies look awesome, is the card oc'd with these? Also, did you catch my question about the refresh rates?

Thanks,

flesh