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Clay
06-06-04, 10:20 PM
I received the following via e-mail from someone that, let's just say that I've known them all my life. I wouldn't say that I know them very well though. Anyway, I'm curious to see what kind of responses it receives. More specifically, I'm interested in reading some intelligible and rational rebuttals. ;)

The War to End All Wars... Didn't!

What is this War in Terror? What nation is threatening us? Do we make every kid a soldier just to go around the world looking for "terrorist" who are no more or less than thugs? Why don't we just make ALL kids policemen and policewomen so we can eliminate ALL crime in our own country? We are losing far far more citizens everyday, mostly our young, to gun and other forms of violence. Why don't we just hunt all these "potential" criminals down and eliminate the problem. These last two cynical questions are, of course, absurd suggestions.

Bush and this administration along with some bamboozled Democrats have lead a relentless campaign of FEAR. We are dealing with thugs, yes organized and malicious, but they are not a nation's army! They have nothing that approximates the war machines that truly threaten the US and other major nations.

To let these terrorists rule our lives as they have done this administration since 911 is to play perfectly into their hands. While we are on endless witch hunts around the globe, nations like North Korea, China, Russia, Japan, Mexico (yes Mexico) and a host of other nations we have either stifled or massacred in the past are just waiting for the moment in history when we, The United States of America, is spread so thin and is so preoccupied with thugs that we cannot possible react to their sudden onslaught of coordinated attacks.

We must face this hard fact. THE UNITED STATES IS FEARED.... NOT RESPECTED as we all love to believe. The Bush administration, beginning with its withdrawal from the Kyoto Treaty and continuing as it presently ignores Geneva Convention rules in Iraq and Guantanamo Bay has turned even some of historical allies against us.

One cannot follow world news, not as the US news media presents it but as each nations presents their own perspectives, without realizing the Bush administration has infuriated many world leaders and the bin Laden's of the world are simply flash points of that fury.

Sure Bush.... make everyone hate you and you had better have a captive army (young boys and girls) to protect you!

It is clear, I detest this selected president Bush. He is delusional and has surrounded himself with a band of vigilantes convinced they are instruments of God. Yes, these guys do not pace back and forth with sinister smiles on their faces and wringing their hands in greedy anticipation of total world domination. No, these guys pray every night.... and blindly answer their own prayers the next day as if God himself was subject to their suppositions.

I consider myself an instrument of God, or should be... but in spite of my human limitations and not so perfect ways. Bush to Ashcroft and Rove to Card these crusaders are as barbaric as the Conquistadors of old. Only their military sophistication with its smart technology and their advanced malevolent use of mass psychology distinguishes this sinister group from earlier manifestations of Manifest Destiny. They war with the most deadly "Weapons of Mass Destruction," words, words that tickle our ears while letting our blood. Karl Rove is the high priest of political "double-entendre." It sickens me to admit this but it it true. Rove is the best.....the best of the worst .

Bush and Ashcroft have all but stated, "they know God is on their side." As if it's not disgusting enough when professional athletes claim God is on their teams side, our leaders are taking it a step farther. Christians believe, as do I, we are God's chosen people..... I make no apology for this belief. Yet, this belief in based in a spiritual context..... having nothing to do with my nationality, race, gender, or any other physical trait or political ideology.

Everything else about being Christian demands I love my neighbor as myself; that I pray for my enemies; that I turn the other cheek.

War-hawk Christians..... show me one example where Jesus encourages war or even excuses war for any reason! Show me. Don't give me any of the numerous wars described in the Old Testament books. They are presented as biblical history.... not even these wars are addressed by Jesus as "holy wars." All humans are free moral agents..... that means God allows us to war if we choose. God may use wars to eventually and ultimately bring about His will. But nowhere in all the Bible does God or His son condone war. Nowhere. Justification for war; it's just not there Christians. War is bad.... period. War is so much a part of human history humans accept war as an inevitable fact of life..... failing to even imagine a world without war or even the threat of war.

Christ imagined a world without war..... and we who are supposed to struggle to be "like Him" must do the same.

War is a means to eliminate those who don't either look like us, think like us, act like us, consume like us, pray like us, or have stuff we want that they either charge us too much for or simply won't give or sell to us.. War is to force change on others or kill them..... period.

Interestingly, when we eliminate ALL our threats we predictably turn on each other as we begin, in the absence of more stark differences, to notice that my buddy over here is really getting on my nerves with his or her quirk(s). In the absence of much greater irritations I begin to fixate on my friends quirk(s). As the individual goes....so goes the nation. So you see, war to eliminate differences to great for us to accept just makes those once insignificant differences found even among friends suddenly significant. It is only a matter of time before these newfound differences become grounds for war. Hey, even these United States of America having just "won" a war against its parents, soon found itself to be intolerable.....north and south hated and fought yet another war, The Civil War.

Did good come out this war? Certainly. But is it a given that slavery and other economic differences could not have been rectified without war given our leaders had more patience, more genuine concern for fellow humans? Is it impossible to become, collectively, as humans more patient, more understanding and more willing to attend the good side of our species? If you answer no, that is to say it is possible to acheive these goals. So why is peacemongering received so poorly in these United States of America?

I often wonder with utter frustration, "how and when did being a peacemonger become so disgusting to the flag-waving masses and warmongering a popular social mindset?" Christ.... the Prince of Peace.

Albert Einstein (1879-1955), who some would called an elitist, uttered this well-known quote, "You cannot simultaneously prevent and prepare for war."

Einstein also said, "I know not with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones."

Drafting ALL kids, son(s), daughter(s), brother(s), sister(s), cousin(s), niece(s), nephew(s), and grandkid(s) is my friend, "preparing for war."

So what kind of world do we want for our own flesh and blood? One where the mightiest has its way with the rest. Before you answer, consider this questions.

Is God really an American? Is America really godly? Is it a given that the United States of America will alway be the mightiest? A century from now? A decade from now? A year from now? If you answered yes to these questions....please cite your source(s).

Oppose reinstating the draft. Our nation just celebrated our veterans. Many of them fought and died in the "war that ended all wars." How many times must humans recycle a myth before it is recognized as just that....a myth?

One war is simply a breeding ground for subsequent wars. Never has a war saved the soul of a single dead man, woman, or child. Never. Killing ones father, mother, or child does not win favor..... not for the murderer; not for the "victor."

Please do these two things.

1) Voice your opposition to reinstating the draft. (see message below)

2) Vote Bush out of office.

The third thing will then more likely eliminate itself. "WW III"

Underzenith
06-06-04, 10:38 PM
Although he does have a few valid points, he really didn't come across as a sane person in that rant...

Clay
06-06-04, 10:45 PM
That's an interesting observation. :)

BTW, is your avatar image from a Simpsons episode? It appears to be but I don't recall ever seeing that before.

Underzenith
06-06-04, 10:55 PM
It's from the episode where bart and lisa chase homer and marge around the country.

The Canadian Coast Guard to the American Coast Guard: "Take a hike, you shatner stealing Mexico touchers."

Clay
06-06-04, 11:02 PM
Wow...could it be that there is an episode that I've yet to see?!?! :eek: I thought it might've been the episode where...

Bart from the Statue of Liberty "Hey, immigrants! Beat It! Country's full!", boat caption says "Okay, folks. You hear the lady. Back into the hold. We'll try Canada.". Followed by groaning of the immigrants. I was wrong though..wow, gotta see that one. :D

Drumphil
06-07-04, 12:24 AM
looks like a fairly sane rant to me.

Jarred
06-07-04, 01:19 AM
I think he had some valid points, except all that stuff about religion, because you can never be certain how much that is driving someone's motives...

but I too, believe that terrorists are thugs, their weapon is fear, and that is their only weapon, they pose no threat to the nation as a whole, and what were are doing in turn, right now, my very well be just creating more terrorists.

just MO.

although, I do like this qoute

"War-hawk Christians..... show me one example where Jesus encourages war or even excuses war for any reason! Show me. Don't give me any of the numerous wars described in the Old Testament books. They are presented as biblical history.... not even these wars are addressed by Jesus as "holy wars." All humans are free moral agents..... that means God allows us to war if we choose. God may use wars to eventually and ultimately bring about His will. But nowhere in all the Bible does God or His son condone war. Nowhere. Justification for war; it's just not there Christians. War is bad.... period. War is so much a part of human history humans accept war as an inevitable fact of life..... failing to even imagine a world without war or even the threat of war.

Christ imagined a world without war..... and we who are supposed to struggle to be "like Him" must do the same."

and, for some reason I've never considered the incidents that are happing right now a "war" in the sense that the rest of the world knows war.

UDawg
06-07-04, 01:32 AM
You haven't read the bible have you? Let me ask you this. According to the bible who is Jesus?

Jarred
06-07-04, 01:34 AM
You haven't read the bible have you? Let me ask you this. According to the bible who is Jesus?

The son of god.

UDawg
06-07-04, 01:37 AM
and who is the Son of God?

Jarred
06-07-04, 01:38 AM
and who is the Son of God?

jesus? dude, I'm not going to get into a religous debate with you, I said I liked a qoute, leave it at that.

UDawg
06-07-04, 01:44 AM
Jesus is Immanuel "God with us" He is God in the flesh. He is the same God of the old testiment and the new testiment. If you say leave out the old testimate then you have to throw out the new testimate.

So we see God supporting His people in many examples in the old testimate. Since Jesus is God on earth and in the flesh then He is the same God in the old testimate.

The fact is God does justify war to defend your self. This is absolutely ok with Him. Even pre-emptive wars can be justified to take out a growing threat. If you are looking for a quote in the bible that says "...and Jesus said yes you can go to wary to day Jared" then no you wont find it there.

We do as Christians have the right to defend our selves.

BTW show me where it says we cannot defend our selves by going to war?

I'm not going to get into a religous debate with you

Then why did you ask that question. That is "getting into a religous debate"

Jarred
06-07-04, 01:54 AM
Jesus is Immanuel "God with us" He is God in the flesh. He is the same God of the old testiment and the new testiment. If you say leave out the old testimate then you have to throw out the new testimate.

So we see God supporting His people in many examples in the old testimate. Since Jesus is God on earth and in the flesh then He is the same God in the old testimate.

The fact is God does justify war to defend your self. This is absolutely ok with Him. Even pre-emptive wars can be justified to take out a growing threat. If you are looking for a quote in the bible that says "...and Jesus said yes you can go to wary to day Jared" then no you wont find it there.

We do as Christians have the right to defend our selves.

BTW show me where it says we cannot defend our selves by going to war?



Then why did you ask that question. That is "getting into a religous debate"

wow, thanx for the religion class, I'll have none of it thank you. :)

and was I asking any questions? ...?? I thought I was just stating MO.

EDIT:
the "jesus?" was just a guess. I figured my following stement was clear that I didn't want to hear your response, becasue I knew what the "tone" was going to be.

retsam
06-07-04, 01:55 AM
but I too, believe that terrorists are thugs, their weapon is fear, and that is their only weapon, they pose no threat to the nation as a whole, and what were are doing in turn, right now, my very well be just creating more terrorists.
dude please dont tell me 911 didnt happen ..... and YES terrorists can endanger the nation as a whole just look at what happened on 911 ..... the loss of millions of jobs and 1.1 trillion dollars evaporated out of the economy..... if this isnt proof ..... then go and stick your head back in the sand ...

UDawg
06-07-04, 01:55 AM
Here is a thought. After the tribulation there will be the battle at Armagedon where God's people defeat Satan. After Jesus has reigned for a thousand years there will be one final battle where Satan and his will be consummed by God's fire and thrown into the lake of fire. Now I see two battles here in a war. Yet you say God does not allow us to go to war. This is a war God is personaly going to win. He is intimately involved with it.

UDawg
06-07-04, 01:57 AM
wow, thanx for the religion class, I'll have none of it thank you. :)

and was I asking any questions? ...?? I thought I was just stating MO.

I only corrected you on your knowledge of who Jesus is and how you cannot throw out the old testimate to make you point because it would be a false point. If you didn't want to get into this subject then you should not have challenged Christians on a topic they know better than you. :)

Jarred
06-07-04, 01:57 AM
Here is a thought. After the tribulation there will be the battle at Armagedon where God's people defeat Satan. After Jesus has reigned for a thousand years there will be one final battle where Satan and his will be consummed by God's fire and thrown into the lake of fire. Now I see two battles here in a war. Yet you say God does not allow us to go to war. This is a war God is personaly going to win. He is intimately involved with it.

man... I'm just gonna leave this one alone.

UDawg
06-07-04, 02:00 AM
the "jesus?" was just a guess. I figured my following stement was clear that I didn't want to hear your response, becasue I knew what the "tone" was going to be.

Look you made a challenge and a sarcastic one at that. You were trying to prove hypocricy in Christians and it back fired. Now you are upset at what my tone might be? I am quite happy right now and my tone is one of eveness.

Jarred
06-07-04, 02:00 AM
I only corrected you on your knowledge of who Jesus is and how you cannot throw out the old testimate to make you point because it would be a false point. If you didn't want to get into this subject then you should not have challenged Christians on a topic they know better than you. :)

wow, you got some issues to reslove dude. You were asking the questions, and when I stated I didn't wanna have any part of it you threw it out there anyway becasue you felt the need to "defend" your precious religion.

I do'nt recall challenging anyone on any topic... your bringing everything to the table here.

Jarred
06-07-04, 02:01 AM
Look you made a challenge and a sarcastic one at that. You were trying to prove hypocricy in Christians and it back fired. Now you are upset at what my tone might be? I am quite happy right now and my tone is one of eveness.

WHAT CHALLENGE!???

I stated I LIKED A FREAKIN QUOTE?

dude that wasn't my qoute, read the begining of the post.

Jarred
06-07-04, 02:02 AM
this qoute!?

""War-hawk Christians..... show me one example where Jesus encourages war or even excuses war for any reason! Show me. Don't give me any of the numerous wars described in the Old Testament books. They are presented as biblical history.... not even these wars are addressed by Jesus as "holy wars." All humans are free moral agents..... that means God allows us to war if we choose. God may use wars to eventually and ultimately bring about His will. But nowhere in all the Bible does God or His son condone war. Nowhere. Justification for war; it's just not there Christians. War is bad.... period. War is so much a part of human history humans accept war as an inevitable fact of life..... failing to even imagine a world without war or even the threat of war.

Christ imagined a world without war..... and we who are supposed to struggle to be "like Him" must do the same.""

IS NOT MINE!

I said I "liked" it. man, you really need to read the whole posts before you jump your freakin guns.

UDawg
06-07-04, 02:02 AM
First off, yes it is precious. Secondly you did challenge Christians and when I took up that challenge you tucked your tail and ran. Now you want to put it off on me as if I have a problem. LOL!!! Nice try. Just bow out like you said you were going to.

Jarred
06-07-04, 02:03 AM
First off, yes it is precious. Secondly you did challenge Christians and when I took up that challenge you tucked your tail and ran. Now you want to put it off on me as if I have a problem. LOL!!! Nice try. Just bow out like you said you were going to.

dude, you got issues, I have no idea what your talking about.

UDawg
06-07-04, 02:04 AM
show me one example where Jesus encourages war or even excuses war for any reason! Show me. Don't give me any of the numerous wars described in the Old Testament books. They are presented as biblical history

This IS the challenge. Then you tried to narrow down the argument by using a false argument. I merely showed how you were wrong and where. Don't get upset because I did so.

I ask you a question. Show me where Jesus said we could not go to war to defend our selves. You will not find that any where in the bible.

UDawg
06-07-04, 02:05 AM
Why is it all of a sudden I have issues and why are you calling me dude?