Hebron "abuse" case?

[Sazar]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/3832397.stm

[bknblk]

Indefensible behavior described there.

[Sazar]

I don't know either way hence the "abuse" in apostrophe's...

hopefully any investigation will be made public, at least partially...

[Sazar]

a follow up to the article..

Captured in the photos are a young Palestinian boy who was blindfolded and handcuffed for eight hours after he was caught throwing stones. Also pictured are Palestinian men left by the side of the road for hours at a time. And displayed on the wall are car keys confiscated from Palestinian drivers caught breaking curfew.

"The IDF said a few months ago that the IDF does not confiscate keys, and we know for a fact it happens on a daily basis," Kurtz said.

The longer he served in Hebron, the easier it got and the more aggressive he became, Kurtz said.

He also described personal conflicts he felt while defending 500 Jewish settlers in Hebron who are surrounded by 130,000 Palestinians. Kurtz said some of the settlers would vandalize Palestinian shops and houses, write graffiti such as "Arabs out," move into Palestinian shops in the middle of the night and turn them into homes, and their children would throw rocks at an old Arab woman.

But the most controversial part of the exhibit is the videotaped testimony of more than 70 former Israeli soldiers who describe indiscriminately firing tear gas and grenades, returning fire sometimes for hours at a time, mostly at empty buildings.

During a visit to the exhibit, the Hebron soldiers' commander asked why none of that behavior was ever reported to him.

They answered that the behavior was considered routine.

Other active and former soldiers have visited the exhibit, including veteran Eli Allon.

"For me this is nothing new," he said. "I know these things are happening in the territories."

[Sazar]

forgot to add the link to the above...

http://www.cnn.com/2004/WORLD/meast/06/25/breaking.silence/index.html

it is strange though that only one person has commented thus far on this matter...

[UDawg]

Because it is about Israel and most of us avoid this topic like the plague ;) at leas I do.

[Rakeesh]

Like I always say, I'll be damned if I can ever make heads or tails of the whole isreal/palestine situation.

Maybe this is one of those conflicts where two different kinds of evil are fighting one another? I guess all you can do is hope that the lesser evil prevails.

[ChAsM]

All I can say is this stuff is bound to happen. Hatred and cruelty spawns hatred and cruelty. I don't approve, but they (Israelis) obviously are adopting the philosophy of fight fire with fire. Where are the Palestinian apologists who say, "you can't blame them can you?"

[r2d2d3d4d5]

All I can say is this stuff is bound to happen. Hatred and cruelty spawns hatred and cruelty. I don't approve, but they (Israelis) obviously are adopting the philosophy of fight fire with fire. Where are the Palestinian apologists who say, "you can't blame them can you?"
What would you do if your land was occupied? If your homes were destroyed and your land was confiscated? If you were forced to leave in smaller and smaller enclaves?

[sytaylor]

What would you do if your land was occupied? If your homes were destroyed and your land was confiscated? If you were forced to leave in smaller and smaller enclaves?

Go live in a nation, rather than at the cross section of about 3 other nations. However, if like the palestinians I didn't have a lot of money, I'd be tempted to become a refugee and try for asylum in a major world nation.

[r2d2d3d4d5]

Go live in a nation, rather than at the cross section of about 3 other nations. However, if like the palestinians I didn't have a lot of money, I'd be tempted to become a refugee and try for asylum in a major world nation.
So you would just leave your home and the home of your ancestors? Anyway I’ve yet to see a country volunteer to take any Palestinian refugees. Most of Israel’s neighbours have enough problems with the refuge camps already on their lands.

[DiscipleDOC]

So you would just leave your home and the home of your ancestors? Anyway I’ve yet to see a country volunteer to take any Palestinian refugees. Most of Israel’s neighbours have enough problems with the refuge camps already on their lands.

Stop. This is a circular arguement. The land that was given to the Jews by the UN is also the birthplace of Jesus...and also the land that holds alot of spirtual value for the Jews.

The problem here is that Palestine and Lebanon is kinda sore that they got their butt kicked by Israel back when they tried to invade Israel back in the 70-80's.

[sytaylor]

So you would just leave your home and the home of your ancestors? Anyway I’ve yet to see a country volunteer to take any Palestinian refugees. Most of Israel’s neighbours have enough problems with the refuge camps already on their lands.

I know the question was meant to be rhetorical, but you asked what would I do. I answered. Yes I would leave, if it meant a better life, then why not? Btw I'm not religious ;) Spose that helps in this instance.

[r2d2d3d4d5]

Stop. This is a circular arguement. The land that was given to the Jews by the UN is also the birthplace of Jesus...and also the land that holds alot of spirtual value for the Jews.

The problem here is that Palestine and Lebanon is kinda sore that they got their butt kicked by Israel back when they tried to invade Israel back in the 70-80's.
I'm pretty sure the UN did not give all of the occupied territories to Israel. This land also holds spiritual value to Muslims and Christians. Just because the original people that occupied some of that land (I have no idea what the borders were two thousand years ago) were Jewish does not mean that many of their descendants are not now Christian or Muslim.

Anyway how far back should we go as to what land belongs to whom? Perhaps Europeans should start moving out of the Americas and Oceania and give that land back to the original inhabitants?

[r2d2d3d4d5]

I know the question was meant to be rhetorical, but you asked what would I do. I answered. Yes I would leave, if it meant a better life, then why not? Btw I'm not religious ;) Spose that helps in this instance.
I probably would leave too. But the Palestinians don't really have that choice. A few might be able to escape at a time but the majority have nowhere to go. I don't really think it has as much to do with religion as people make out. People can become very attached to their homes and their ancestral heritage.

[vampireuk]

The whole idea of a Palestinian nation and a Palestinian people is an invention of Arab propaganda. Arafat is himself an Egyptian. The only people to have lived continuously on the land “from time immemorial” are Jews. So many others have conquered, ruled, thrived and ultimately perished there that the list would take hundreds of pages. A mere sample would include: Byzantines, Persians, Arabs, Turks, Circassians, Kurds, Abbassids (Iraqis), Egyptians, Kharezmians (Genghis Khan), Mamluks, Mongols, Latins (Crusaders), Ottomans, French and English.

It is not and never was “Palestinian land.”

To quote a sig

[r2d2d3d4d5]

Can I ask where the quote originally came from? It seems to be a slightly biased source.

I'm a bit rusty on my bible but I thought the "Jews" came from Egypt anyway.

I don't see how you can claim that the Jews of today are exactly the same people as the Jews of two thousand years ago. For one thing a lot Jewish Israel’s have European descent. Also I don't think it is too difficult to assume that many of the original Jews have changed faith to Islam or Christianity.

I also don't agree that people whose ancestors have lived there for at least a thousand years do not have a right to live there now.

[bknblk]

Can I ask where the quote originally came from? It seems to be a slightly biased source.

I'm a bit rusty on my bible but I thought the "Jews" came from Egypt anyway.

I don't see how you can claim that the Jews of today are exactly the same people as the Jews of two thousand years ago. For one thing a lot Jewish Israel’s have European descent. Also I don't think it is too difficult to assume that many of the original Jews have changed faith to Islam or Christianity.

I also don't agree that people whose ancestors have lived there for at least a thousand years do not have a right to live there now.

If you are rusty on your Bible, then you may want to read it BEFORE trying to recite from memory. You are correct in the assumption that some Jews have converted over time. They are few and far between though. As far as your having found the quote biased, I am confused as to how a factual statement can be construed as being biased. If you would like to refute any of the claims made there, I am listening.

[r2d2d3d4d5]

If you are rusty on your Bible, then you may want to read it BEFORE trying to recite from memory. You are correct in the assumption that some Jews have converted over time. They are few and far between though. As far as your having found the quote biased, I am confused as to how a factual statement can be construed as being biased. If you would like to refute any of the claims made there, I am listening.

Perhaps you would like to correct me with the actual origin of the Jews according to the bible then?

How do you know they are few and far between? Where exactly did the Palestinians come from? Did they suddenly appear there? Yes some may have come from elsewhere but you cannot say that they all did.

That statement provides no proof and yet completely refutes any claim the Palestinians or anyone else has off hand. How can he or she say that no Christians have, for example, come from Israel? I seem to remember Christ having a few followers from his own land. Is it too hard to think that some Israelis became Muslim when so many other people from the Middle East did? If that statement is so unbiased why does it have to make a personal attack on one man in order to refute the claim of millions of people? The writer is also playing semantics with titles, whether or not it was called "Palestinian Land" is not important, the people that actually live there are.

[bknblk]

Perhaps you would like to correct me with the actual origin of the Jews according to the bible then?

How do you know they are few and far between? Where exactly did the Palestinians come from? Did they suddenly appear there? Yes some may have come from elsewhere but you cannot say that they all did.

That statement provides no proof and yet completely refutes any claim the Palestinians or anyone else has off hand. How can he or she say that no Christians have, for example, come from Israel? I seem to remember Christ having a few followers from his own land. Is it too hard to think that some Israelis became Muslim when so many other people from the Middle East did? If that statement is so unbiased why does it have to make a personal attack on one man in order to refute the claim of millions of people? The writer is also playing semantics with titles, whether or not it was called "Palestinian Land" is not important, the people that actually live there are.

I would love to answer some of your questions, but I would need you to phrase them in an intelligible fashion before doing so.

It is not my job to enlighten you on the origin of my people. If you would like to learn about us, then read a little. Palestinian is a name created for people that occupied the land of which we speak for a relatively short period of time.

Have Christians come from Israel? Of course. I ask you this; which religion predates which?

Where does my signature quote make a personal attack on anyone?

You are the one playing semantics. I suggest you reread the quote, as you apparently are reading more into it than what is stated, or it simply is beyond your comprehension. Concentrate. You can do it.

BTW, here is a chance for you to educate me: Was Christ a Christian? Were his peers? Gee, I was under the impression that Chritianity as a religion was not formed for about 100 years after Christ. Please apprise.

[UDawg]

That whole area was part of Jordan and they were Jordanians

[r2d2d3d4d5]

I would love to answer some of your questions, but I would need you to phrase them in an intelligible fashion before doing so.

It is not my job to enlighten you on the origin of my people. If you would like to learn about us, then read a little. Palestinian is a name created for people that occupied the land of which we speak for a relatively short period of time.

Have Christians come from Israel? Of course. I ask you this; which religion predates which?

Where does my signature quote make a personal attack on anyone?

You are the one playing semantics. I suggest you reread the quote, as you apparently are reading more into it than what is stated, or it simply is beyond your comprehension. Concentrate. You can do it.

BTW, here is a chance for you to educate me: Was Christ a Christian? Were his peers? Gee, I was under the impression that Chritianity as a religion was not formed for about 100 years after Christ. Please apprise.
:nono: There is no need for personal attacks. If your argument is valid then let it stand on its own merits.

Again whether the land is called Palestine or not is not important the people that actually live there are. I also don't agree with your suggestion that the land belongs to a group of one particular religion. Races of people are not simply defined by their religion. Just because these people are not Jewish does not mean that they have not right to that land.

So would you say Christ and the apostles were good synagogue going Jews? Whether Christ and his followers read the New Testament or not is no important their actions and words are.

I'm also certain that Christianity would have flourished in Israel like it did in so many other places after Christ's death.

[Riptide]

I'll stay out of this except to say it would be nice if people would just share and act peacefully with each other. But alas, I hear the phone ringing and it's reality calling..

[r2d2d3d4d5]

bknblk what is your ideal solution to the current situation?

[UDawg]

:nono: There is no need for personal attacks. If your argument is valid then let it stand on its own merits.

Again whether the land is called Palestine or not is not important the people that actually live there are. I also don't agree with your suggestion that the land belongs to a group of one particular religion. Races of people are not simply defined by their religion. Just because these people are not Jewish does not mean that they have not right to that land.

So would you say Christ and the apostles were good synagogue going Jews? Whether Christ and his followers read the New Testament or not is no important their actions and words are.

I'm also certain that Christianity would have flourished in Israel like it did in so many other places after Christ's death.

The reason it didn't was because of the Muslims. There was this thing I call the "Muslim" Crusades that no one wants to talk about that killed off or drove Christians out of that region.

BTW It does matter if there was a state called Palistine. You cannot say this was your land when the land that was there was part of a state that gave that land for the creation of another land. There for to say the land was stolen is fales. They were Jordanians on Jordanian land.