No virtual displacement mapping for ati in far cry!

[Pandora's Box]

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33767223

[Clay]

This is my favorite quote from that thread:
and the thing is, there is NOTHING special about PS3. maybe in ten years, but now? Nothing over PS2. NOTHING. and then there are the requisite tin foil hat posts. :D

[Riptide]

I wonder why? Perhaps the performance hit is staggering then, if you don't have a 6800?

[MUYA]

This is my favorite quote from that thread:
and then there are the requisite tin foil hat posts. :D


I dunno why that person says that cause IIRC R500 is supposed to have sm 3.0. What is he going to say then?

[Pandora's Box]

why wouldnt far cry do virtual displacement mapping for ati? ps 3.0 is easier to work with

[schuey74]

It could be a heck of a one-two punch for Nvidia if this is true and they have the expected advantage in Doom 3, which is now only a month away. It will be interesting to see how ATI responds, cause I'm not so sure HL2 will be enough. SS2 could be their ace in the hole.....if it comes out this year, which looks 50/50 right now.

[NightFire]

No doubt ATi fanboys will start claiming it's the next greatest thing since air, and that Nvidia's support was "faulty", or "not true 3.0".
Maybe?

[Arioch]

Yeah well if Crytek was per$uaded by Nvidia to screw over ATI owners than that is a shame.

So now ATI will get someone to do someone similiar with ATI tech and piss off Nvidia owners in a future big title. If this is true it is total bull****.

I am not sure why people are applauding this move - this could lead to some big games being a lesser playing experience from one person to another depending on what card they own. If someone is shelling out big money for a high end card they should be able to enjoy the benefits as much as someone else with their expensive video card.

[schuey74]

Yeah well if Crytek was per$uaded by Nvidia to screw over ATI owners than that is a shame.

So now ATI will get someone to do someone similiar with ATI tech and piss of Nvidia owners. If this is true it is total bull****.

I am not sure why people are applauding this move - this could lead to some big games being a lesser playing experience from one person to another depending on what card they own.
So true. This may be good in the short term, but all it means is that we can expect to see this type of behaviour from both companies more & more. I don't know about you guys, but I don't want to have to choose which games I buy based on which video card company is behind it. That's a sure fire way to miss out on great games.

[Arioch]

Well it sucks for the average gamer with a limited budget. I could go out and buy a 6800 Ultra when it finally hits store shelves and sell my X800XT for a small loss if this starts to snowball in future games but it's sad to have to do this I think.

This also affects Nvidia NV3X owners - why would Nvidia want to do take this feature away from some of their own customers?

[schuey74]

Well it sucks for the average gamer with a limited budget. I could go out and buy a 6800 Ultra when it finally hits store shelves and sell my X800XT for a small loss if this starts to snowball in future games but it's sad to have to do this I think.

This also affects Nvidia NV3X owners - why would Nvidia want to do take this feature away from some of their own customers?
Well, you have to keep in mind that ATI will likely play the same game so it's not as simple as switching from one brand to the other. It's more like needing to have two PCs setup to play what works on each one respectively - no thanks, I've already got an X-Box, PS2, and GC in my living room....I don't need two gaming PCs, especially when they're not exactly $150 a pop like the home consoles.
And there's no way to comment on your last sentence without it being flamed to death, but it should be plainly obvious for all who want to see it.

[DSC]

Please, ATI is doing the same thing. Gabe says HL2 will run up to 40% faster on ATI cards? :lame:

[Arioch]

Please, ATI is doing the same thing. Gabe says HL2 will run up to 40% faster on ATI cards? :lame:

I can live with the fact that the game might run slower on my machine since I do not have a SM3.0 card but at least having the option to use it would be nice. Both companies are just going to end up screwing us over the way this is starting to look.

I can see this thread is going to descend into the fiery depths of hell soon.

[Nv40]

Yeah well if Crytek was per$uaded by Nvidia to screw over ATI owners than that is a shame.

So now ATI will get someone to do someone similiar with ATI tech and piss of Nvidia owners. If this is true it is total bull****.

I am not sure why people are applauding this move - this could lead to some big games being a lesser playing experience from one person to another depending on what card they own.

perhaps they are using real Displacement Mapping in FArcry.. (Vs3.0 feature) is not then read what it comes next.. :)

we will need to wait for the game to be released to end all the speculations. but virtual DM or not.. is not the only thing FAcrcry SM3.0 Mod will support. they added Geometry Intancing / *one pass* DYnamic Softshadows (not possible without SM3.0) and aparently a huge number of shader intructions 500!! ? using branching. things that cannot be done in ATI R3xx-4xx hardware using SM2.0.

the thing is that Crytek developers are not going hack their mod for
a Sm1.x version another version for SM2.0 another for Sm2.0+ . since it will take far *more work* to them , 3x the time!! ..and the performance cost using multipasses will not be good enough .virtual displacement mapping is not the MOd. is just a fancy addon (that will work on any PS1x and up card) but since most of the effects are only possible with Sm3.0 ,virtual Dm will be only in Sm3.0 cards.
why? re-read again this paragraph.

for sure.. i can guarantee you ,and this is IMHO... ,that any ATI folks that believed the (ATi PR marketing) that SM3.0 is not going to make any diference and that there will be no games supporting it in years will be surprised and perhaps dissapointed if they thought that they will be able to play Sm3.0 MOds in incomming games using ATI cards. the key word here is ->MOds. the original game will still be 100% fully playable whether tha game is merely PS1x or PS2.0 will still be playable in Dx8/Dx9 hardware. is only the extra work that will not. Ps2.0 games will stay with us for many many years..PS1x for some time(maybe until 2004).. but any developer that will like to make their game engine more atractive (since they want to $sell it ..developers doesnt do this just for fun you know.. they need to pay bills) .. *will support* the latest Standar tech for microsoft no matter if it comes from ATI or Nvidia or Matrox.since game developers also compete between them to see who have the latest graphics and engine. there is a huge list of game supporting PS1.4 and trueform . i dont see why it need to be any diferent with Sm3.0 this time. more than it adds a Lot of improvements in performance and better graphics to DirectX9.

it also helps greatly (of course ) to speed the process if they receive help from IHV's.. whether is technical assitance ,they work in shaders themselves or money. and nothing wrong with that. that Business. they help to make their games to look better and the game help to increase the sales of their hardware. is a win/win situation for the developers/IHV. plus also the gamers will get better graphics.

[schuey74]

Please, ATI is doing the same thing. Gabe says HL2 will run up to 40% faster on ATI cards? :lame:
Isn't that what everyone's saying here? :screwy:

[Morrow]

It could be a heck of a one-two punch for Nvidia if this is true and they have the expected advantage in Doom 3, which is now only a month away. It will be interesting to see how ATI responds, cause I'm not so sure HL2 will be enough. SS2 could be their ace in the hole.....if it comes out this year, which looks 50/50 right now.

The problem is that ATI has not much to respond with in the first place except 3Dc. In any case it's ATI mistake to not offer SM3.0 support in their X800 series. They thought they could save a few millions bucks by recycling the r3x0 architecture and disregarding SM3.0 since there official stance is that SM3.0 won't matter 2004 although they know that it is far more useful than they are currently admitting.

ATI misjudged nvidia and got surprised but how much nvidia invests to push SM3.0 into games this year. I really can't see why you would blame nvidia for making sure that a tomorrow's technology will be made available today on many A-list games. Don't forget that SM3.0 is not an nvidia invention but a Microsoft DirectX standard and by that nvidia is also making sure that ATI will have great SM3.0 games next year when they ship their SM3.0 capable R520. So it isn't that bad for ATI after all.

If this "virtual displacement requires a SM3.0 card" in FarCry is true than there are already three major titles coming out this year which will offer SM3.0 only features: FarCry, Splinter Cell X and another mysterious title. The last two won't even have a SM2.0 fallback.

This evolution is actually logical because with SM3.0 capable hardware SM2.0 is no longer needed. They are now two important shader models: SM1.0 and SM3.0.

SM1.0 is perfect for basic low precision fixed function shaders (no FP support or complex shader routines possible) and SM3.0 is for high-precision, complex shader instructions including loops and dynamic branches and other features which SM2.0 does not support. SM2.0 is no longer needed because SM3.0 can do everything SM2.0 can at the same speed and can even speed up some more complex shaders. If needed SM3.0 also offers partial precision much like SM2.0 and other new features like VS texture lookup and geometry instancing making the life of developpers much easier if they only support SM3.0. Of course developpers still have to evaluate if it is feasible to neglect SM2.0 only cards.

ATI made a decision not to support SM3.0 and people buying X800 cards made a decision that they won't need SM3.0 any time soon. They will have to live with that. Don't blame nvidia for it! SM3.0 will be the shader model to use till SM4.0 arrives in mid 2006 the earliest.

[Pandora's Box]

Yeah well if Crytek was per$uaded by Nvidia to screw over ATI owners than that is a shame.

So now ATI will get someone to do someone similiar with ATI tech and piss off Nvidia owners in a future big title. If this is true it is total bull****.

I am not sure why people are applauding this move - this could lead to some big games being a lesser playing experience from one person to another depending on what card they own. If someone is shelling out big money for a high end card they should be able to enjoy the benefits as much as someone else with their expensive video card.

If that someone shelling out big money for a high end card did his homework he would go for the card with the most features and keeps up with the competition which has less features. hence nv40.

[Morrow]

Please, ATI is doing the same thing. Gabe says HL2 will run up to 40% faster on ATI cards? :lame:

no, that statement of Gabe was misunderstood. Gabe said that HL2 will run 40% faster on X800 cards than on 9x00 Radeons and not than on the 6800! That would be insane.

[Arioch]

So a very small fraction of the PC gaming population will get to enjoy this it appears. This announcement wouldn't really bother me but therewas an interview with the CEO of Crytek a little while back stating that users of non-PS3.0 cards would get the eye candy also but the 6800 users would see some performance increases.

[Nv40]

The problem is that ATI has not much to respond with in the first place except 3Dc. In any case it's ATI mistake to not offer SM3.0 support in their X800 series. They thought they could save a few millions bucks by recycling the r3x0 architecture and disregarding SM3.0 since there official stance is that SM3.0 won't matter 2004 although they know that it is far more useful than they are currently admitting.

ATI misjudged nvidia and got surprised but how much nvidia invests to push SM3.0 into games this year. I really can't see why you would blame nvidia for making sure that a tomorrow's technology will be made available today on many A-list games. Don't forget that SM3.0 is not an nvidia invention but a Microsoft DirectX standard and by that nvidia is also making sure that ATI will have great SM3.0 games next year when they ship their SM3.0 capable R520. So it isn't that bad for ATI after all.

If this "virtual displacement requires a SM3.0 card" in FarCry is true than there are already three major titles coming out this year which will offer SM3.0 only features: FarCry, Splinter Cell X and another mysterious title. The last two won't even have a SM2.0 fallback.

This evolution is actually logical because with SM3.0 capable hardware SM2.0 is no longer needed. They are now two important shader models: SM1.0 and SM3.0.




you got it right .. but almost.. :)

ATI misjudged nvidia and wanted to save money.. since they thought NVidia will never have the speed to compete with them in Ps2.0 ,how can they ever get PS3.0 to be supported. they thouht it will be again the same with the FXline.
but Sm2.0 its also important.. the majority of Dx9 cards..
are only Sm2.0 and Sm2.x. heck the majority of the graphics cards outthere are still Directx7.. (geforce4mx). :) but the majority of those people are not generally the people that buys and play many games. just casual gamers.

people with ATi cards can be sure that they will play all incomming games 100% in the orignal intented version. its only that the games that support Sm3.0 will run with extras .

those extras can be ..

1) better PEformance
2) better graphics and IQ (with less perfomance than the original game)
3) or with a mix between better performance and better graphics.

Farcry 3.0 seems that will go with the #2 option. since they are adding lot of stuff from Ps3.0 and Vs3.0 to the game. but most gamers will not mind trading AA/AF or resolutions for a lot more better graphics.

i will prefer anyday to play Doom3 at 1024x768 without AA/AF but with new effects using Sm3.0 and HDR than Doom3 without any Dx9 effects but at very high AA/AF and Resolution settings. to have a choice is always better ,performance is something you can tweak an play with game settings and Faster Cpu. if you dont have a Sm3.0 card. and the game fully support it..you dont have that choice.

and again virtual DM is not the mod.. its only a small part of it.

[mczern]

Wasn't PS2.0 supposed to be pretty worthless and only going to be used in future games when 3DMark03 came out? I seem to remember alot of people saying that :P

[jbirney]

Kind of simlar to what Rev said at B3D. He informed us that upcoming grade A title that was to be in PS3.0 only. But thanks to ATI providing this developer with PS2.0 code, the developer was going to use both PS2.0 and PS3.0. Now a few months later the same developer says that due to marketing business reasons the PS2.0 support will be dropped.


I really can't see why you would blame nvidia for making sure that a tomorrow's technology will be made available today on many A-list games.

I dont think anyone here will blame NV for pushing their Tech. Kudos to them. But when a working PS fall back is DROPPED at the request of NV then thats not good for game enviroment. Did we all just for get the thousands of FX users that just got hosed by this? Not every one can upgrade this gen you know.


If this "virtual displacement requires a SM3.0 card" in FarCry is true than there are already three major titles coming out this year which will offer SM3.0 only features: FarCry, Splinter Cell X and another mysterious title. The last two won't even have a SM2.0 fallback.

I guess we all just happen to forget the NV40 launch where they showed this in action on Frycry. You know the one were the developer said it can be done in PS2.0 as well?

This evolution is actually logical because with SM3.0 capable hardware SM2.0 is no longer needed. They are now two important shader models: SM1.0 and SM3.0.

Gee thanks for screwing over all of those FX users out there. You know the ones that got the FX because of its DX9 abilities? And no you just stop DX9 support for them? Nice.

ATI made a decision not to support SM3.0 and people buying X800 cards made a decision that they won't need SM3.0 any time soon. They will have to live with that. Don't blame nvidia for it!

Thats BS at best. Again its fine to support a feature that you have and a competiter does not have. Its not find to remove a feature that the competor can run just because you pay the developer money. Unless you want GLIDE like programming to return?


While this is great news for those cards that support PS3.0 this is terrible news for the gaming industry as major titles will be split into who features do we turn on and whos features do we turn off.

[Riptide]

Do we *know* that this was done @ the request of Nvidia though?

[Arioch]

Kind of simlar to what Rev said at B3D. He informed us that upcoming grade A title that was to be in PS3.0 only. But thanks to ATI providing this developer with PS2.0 code, the developer was going to use both PS2.0 and PS3.0. Now a few months later the same developer says that due to marketing business reasons the PS2.0 support will be dropped.




I dont think anyone here will blame NV for pushing their Tech. Kudos to them. But when a working PS fall back is DROPPED at the request of NV then thats not good for game enviroment. Did we all just for get the thousands of FX users that just got hosed by this? Not every one can upgrade this gen you know.




I guess we all just happen to forget the NV40 launch where they showed this in action on Frycry. You know the one were the developer said it can be done in PS2.0 as well?



Gee thanks for screwing over all of those FX users out there. You know the ones that got the FX because of its DX9 abilities? And no you just stop DX9 support for them? Nice.



Thats BS at best. Again its fine to support a feature that you have and a competiter does not have. Its not find to remove a feature that the competor can run just because you pay the developer money. Unless you want GLIDE like programming to return?


While this is great news for those cards that support PS3.0 this is terrible news for the gaming industry as major titles will be split into who features do we turn on and whos features do we turn off.

You summed up what I have been trying to say. Taking out the PS2.0 support in the patches when they already had it coded in is pretty pathetic - I hope this garbage doesn't turn into a bad trend. I love PC gaming but crap like this is another reason why console gaming is so strong.

I sure would have liked another go at Far Cry with the added eye candy but Doom 3 is almost here and I still have other games I need to get around to finishing.

[Arioch]

Do we *know* that this was done @ the request of Nvidia though?

It's a TWIMTBP title. The interview with the Crytek CEO indicated that the extra eye candy was going to be usable on more than just the 6800 series cards. Apparently he was a liar or Nvidia "convinced" Crytek to do this. I am hoping this is all a false rumour but who knows.