Interesting NV30 possibilites.

[SurfMonkey]

Well some info has just cropped up at Beyond3D (http://www.beyond3d.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=2857), since the rumour surfaced about the possibility of the NV30 having 48Gb\sec+ bandwidth people have been trying to work out how it was possible.

Now another source has shown how to integrate the advantages of deffered rendering along with the advantages of an IMR. THe new Slipstream technology in the Wildcat VP560 (http://www.beyond3d.com/articles/p9/index.php) seems to do just that. See page three... fwoaar!!

So Creative 3DLabs have proved that it can be done and that leaves nVidia who have had access to Gigapixel tech for quite some time now. Enough time to put it to use, abeit in a much advanced form. If 3DLabs can do it in such a short time, then nVidia can most definately have done it over the period they have been working on the NV3x.

Suddenly the NV30 sounds like a very, very interesting chip even in comparison to the R300. If it is a hybrid TBR\IMR and is as highly optimised and efficient as the rumours suggest, then no amount of revisions to R300 are going to make it competitive with the NV30.

[Bigus Dickus]

There's an awfully long list of if's there chief. ;)

[SurfMonkey]

I don't believe in if anymore, if is an illusion, if is for children. ;)

I think there was only one if in there and that was a quantifier not a question. 3DLabs have done it.

But I agree, we still don't know, but it makes alot of the rumours and stuff that leaked from the NDA'd docs make sense now. I think things are starting to fall into place. When's Comdex again? :D

[Philibob]

Interesting, looks like I planned my graphics card purchase correctly. Either an NV30 or R300 to replace my nForce graphics :D

EDIT- What would be a real benefit of a bandwidth that high?

[SurfMonkey]

Greater colour precision in the framebuffer. FSAA was nearly free with DFR so that wouldn't require the bandwidth it does on current cards. Large shader programs could be stored locally. There are a lot of uses, the main being FSAA. But we'll have to wait and see what nV decide to use it for.

[Bigus Dickus]

Originally posted by SurfMonkey
Suddenly the NV30 sounds like a very, very interesting chip even in comparison to the R300. If it is a hybrid TBR\IMR and (if it) is as highly optimised and efficient as the rumours suggest, then no amount of revisions to R300 are going to make it competitive with the NV30.

Two very big if's there. Not that they might not be true, but it's still firmly in if-land.

[SurfMonkey]

Ach! They were only little ifs and were only filling up the space in case the other words got lonely. I get a feeling in me waters that they may well be very true.

But what exciting ifs they are!! Well worth saving your pennies for, which I'm quite glad I did now.

Mind you I did get four R9700's for work. Three were DOA and all four went back last Monday to be replaced with our trustworthy Ti4600's. I'm most definately waiting for the NV30 now.

And ABIT are announcing their range of cards when nVidia announce the NV30 at Comdex. How can they do that if they don't have any to play with?

[Richthofen]

"
And ABIT are announcing their range of cards when nVidia announce the NV30 at Comdex. How can they do that if they don't have any to play with?
"

yeah you got it..
that made me wonder a littlebit.
How can Abit announce a product which will not be available.
There are only 2 possibilities.
First one is the ABIT guy is wrong and thought NV30 will be available or
second one NV30 will be available in little numbers right after the announcement.

I don't think that the boardmakers will do paperlaunches like ATI, Nvidia or AMD have done in the past.

[Juntari]

Comdex is held in mid-November.
ABit launching a card does not mean that it is going to be widely available But Abit already knows what to expect from Nv30.
A lot of speculation here, we will just have to wait and see.

[nutball]

Originally posted by SurfMonkey

But what exciting ifs they are!! Well worth saving your pennies for, which I'm quite glad I did now.


Indeed.

Like ifs such as "if I were a rich man...da da da da da la la la la la la da da da da da da ".

In the words of Homer Simpson:
Originally posted by HomerSimpson
"Mmmmmm, iffffs. Is there nothing they can't do?"

[Juntari]

Originally posted by SurfMonkey
But what exciting ifs they are!! Well worth saving your pennies for, which I'm quite glad I did now.


But you said that you bought R9700s to guage their merits...so you saved up for whatever came first that was the fastest...even though you could return them for Ti4600, some of us do not have that luxury for experimentation.

[Philibob]

Originally posted by Richthofen
"
And ABIT are announcing their range of cards when nVidia announce the NV30 at Comdex. How can they do that if they don't have any to play with?
"

yeah you got it..
that made me wonder a littlebit.
How can Abit announce a product which will not be available.
There are only 2 possibilities.
First one is the ABIT guy is wrong and thought NV30 will be available or
second one NV30 will be available in little numbers right after the announcement.

I don't think that the boardmakers will do paperlaunches like ATI, Nvidia or AMD have done in the past.
well ABIT must have had some form of NV30 to announce it unless they make up the specs based on the speeds NVIDIA has given them

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by ricercar
Didn't the NVIDIA CEO go on record saying there'll be NV30s by Christmas or something? Bet those guys are working 24/7 to get the chip out with that kind of pressure.

How long does it take to go from tapeout to fab to samples to characterization to production?

yes, the nvidia CEO has been saying it will be available "in time for the holiday season" since at least August. maybe even July.

nvidia has historically taken ~100 days from tapeout to production

[SurfMonkey]

Originally posted by Juntari
But you said that you bought R9700s to guage their merits...so you saved up for whatever came first that was the fastest...even though you could return them for Ti4600, some of us do not have that luxury for experimentation.

I bought the R9700's at work, not for my home machine. I, personally, am glad that I didn't buy a 9700. After our experience with the ones at work I can see why so many people are complaining at Rage3D and asking questions like... Is anybody NOT having problems with their R300's?.

[Bigus Dickus]

Originally posted by SurfMonkey
I bought the R9700's at work, not for my home machine. I, personally, am glad that I didn't buy a 9700. After our experience with the ones at work I can see why so many people are complaining at Rage3D and asking questions like... Is anybody NOT having problems with their R300's?.

The obvious response is "yes, the people NOT having problems are the ones NOT complaining at Rage3d."

You only hear someone if they speak. So many people seem to forget this simple snippet of logic.

[SurfMonkey]

And the number of people speaking makes for a very noisy conversation. ;)

[Bigus Dickus]

I'm sure there was meant to be some logical relevance hidden in that witty remark, but try as I may I can't find it.

[LuckyNV]

Originally posted by Bigus Dickus
The obvious response is "yes, the people NOT having problems are the ones NOT complaining at Rage3d."

You only hear someone if they speak. So many people seem to forget this simple snippet of logic.

Yes, but that may not necessarily mean that the R9700 is not having problems with many ppl.

Some ppl read back pages and other ppl's posts instead of making yet another similar post of their own.

[Bigus Dickus]

The question was not if there were people having problems, which there obviously are, but rather are there people NOT having problems, which might not be so obvious unless you think about the nature of discussing problems.

[SurfMonkey]

There is no question that people are having problems and some aren't. But that is taken for granted. If 50% of people are having problems then 50% are not. If 100% of the people were having problems there wouldn't be a product and ATi would be having even more RMA issues.

It's not the fact that people are having problems, it's the quantity and kinds of problems. Not just software issues but full blown hardware incompatabilites and power supply issues.

I for one wouldn't want to have to upgrade my mobo and PS just to get a gfx card to run. It kind of raises the price of the R300 to silly levels e.g. £260 for 9700 + £150 for mobo + £100 for PS. That makes the cost of the card £310. And the extra hassle of putting it all together. Not my cup of tea.

[jbirney]

A bought a brand new abit nforce mobo 2 months ago. Got the R9700 about a month ago. Had a genaric Power Supply in my system. I have only had a few minor issues (like no menues in Tribes with AA on in OpenGL only and in UE with AA on I can not place or selcect objects). No show stoppers and nothing that has forced me to spend a penny more or decrease the quality of my gaming experince. Lot of other people are enjoying their card (surf on the b3d or 3dgpu boards to see their thoughts).

[Bigus Dickus]

Originally posted by SurfMonkey
I for one wouldn't want to have to upgrade my mobo and PS just to get a gfx card to run.

Luckily most people don't have to do anything like that.

You toss percentages around, but stop for a second to think about what the numbers really are: (1) How many 9700's have been sold? (2) How many people in total post on Rage3d, nVNews, B3D, 3DGPU, etc. that have bought a 9700? (3) What percentage then, of 9700 owners, even post on these forums? (4) What percentage of people posting have had issues? (5) What then can be inferred about the 9700 owners who don't post on forums?

(1) Fairly large
(2) I'm guessing only a few relative to no. (1)
(3) That would make the percentage pretty small.
(4) Don't know... lets's say 50%.
(5) Absolutely nothing.

The reason for the answer for no. (5) is that sampling methods come into consideration, as does psychology of consumers and forum members. There's simply not enough information to make any kind of informed guess as to the total percentage of Radeon 9700 users having issues of any sort.

That's why statements such as "is anyone NOT having problems" are completely bunk and baseless.

[SurfMonkey]

I totally agree that a number of people who were early adopters are enjoying their cards. I also agree that the number of people who report problems on the forums is probably a skewed value. But the majority of people who own the 9700 are the true faithful who knew alot about it before and when it was released. The average Joe Shmoe on the street probably hasn't taken much notice yet, and only will start doing so over Christmas.

It's also true that the majority of people who use the forums also have a higher level than normal of computing knowledge and they are the ones who are having problems, some of which are unsolvable. It's the people who will be buying the card that don't know about the forums, aren't that technically savvy, and haven't been primed to the fact the 9700 seems to have a few problems with the most popular flavour of mb chipset and certain brands of PS, most of which will appear in the cheaper generic rigs that most people own.

So I agree the number of people with problems that are reporting on the forums is probably skewed. In fact it is probably much higher and will get much higher, we just don't see it on the boards.

And as for the number of 9700s sold, I haven't a clue. Probably a few thousand. I do believe that there has been something like 2million units shippped. But take into acount that a number of people seem to be RMAing their cards simply to get the latest revision because it is reported to have fewer problems, then the actual sales to shipped ratio must be pretty low.

Anyway it'll all be a moot point one way or another. All first gen tech is flakier than a lepper colony, and we will have to wait for ATi to produce first gen on .13u at some point. So we'll get two loads of flakey tech from ATi compared to nVs one. nV paid the price, for adopting .13u early, through a miniscule loss in market share and a red face from losing the performance crown. What price will ATi pay?

Oh and the "So how many people are NOT having problems" question actually came from Rage3D. Not my words at all.

[Bigus Dickus]

I wonder... could more assumptions be packed into a single post? I'm skeptical.