Can nforce X IGP with NV3X and beyond an be considered a semi-console ?

[Mod]

Can nforce X IGP with NV3X and beyond an be considered a semi-console ? I mean, every console until now was ROUGHLY a graphic chip( or at least a chip with equivalent function ) very tighly integrated to the CPU and peripherals.

[Bigus Dickus]

Nope.

The X-box can be considered a computer (and can be hacked to work as one), but a PC can't be considered a console.

Why? Well, by definition (mine, of course) consoles are limited in functionality. If it is more flexible, it is a PC. In other words, consoles are a subset of PC's; less flexible and functional.

I guess you could make the argument that if consoles are a subset, then all PC's are consoles as well (which may be true in a sense), but then there would be no reason to differentiate the two.

[nutball]

Yeah, what BD said.

Every console to now hasn't had a hard-drive, modem, LAN, serial port, parallel port, USB to connect to scanners, printers, etc., etc.

If you want to use your 3GHz Athlon + NV30 just to play games, go right ahead. Personally I find some of the things a computer can do which a console can't take more of my time than games.

[StealthHawk]

consoles are limited in fucntionality, although that is changing with addons and such.

but the most important factor of determining a console is a fixed platform. it is created to run on one thing and one thing only. software titles will also be optimized for the fixed platform, not something easily dismissed. this also implies that someone is backing the system, evangelizing it's strengths and making deals for games to be produced.

[Mod]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
but the most important factor of determining a console is a fixed platform

Yeah, that's why I said semi-console, not a console. All features are almost fixed, specially the graphic part with the CPU, to increase eficiency, the other parts are flexible.

[thcdru2k]

it could probably be used as a console though..

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by thcdru2k
it could probably be used as a console though..

like i said though, the thing is that it can be used for all intents and purposes as a console, but you are still missing the most important advantage of a console. games programmed to take full advantage of its power. a pc will never be great as a "console" simply because games lag so far behind technology. and then after many years, the games will surpass the technology limits. ie, Doom 3 is taking full advantage of the original GF card, but you can bet your socks that a GF1 class computer wouldn't run Doom 3 well at all.

All features are almost fixed, specially the graphic part with the CPU, to increase eficiency, the other parts are flexible.

it increases cost efficiency ;)

[Mod]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
lit increases cost efficiency ;)
I expected this, just as happens to a console, or anything that is circuit integrated. So, there won't be a console-like improvement in graphical eficiency ? :(

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Mod
I expected this, just as happens to a console, or anything that is circuit integrated. So, there won't be a console-like improvement in graphical eficiency ? :(

well i was talking more in context of the Xbox. as you may or may not know, the graphics shares bandwidth with the system memory. cost effective, but it puts a damper on performance.

i'm not really sure how plausible using a PC as a console is either, as Microsoft seems to be taking a hefty loss on each console compared to GameCube.

[Mod]

Could they make the bandwidth between the CPU , GPU and/or memory(3 possible combinations) as large as they want ?

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Mod
Could they make the bandwidth between the CPU , GPU and/or memory(3 possible combinations) as large as they want ?

sure, if they use expensive RAM. but that would be somewhat counter-productive, as the CPU would have to be able to take advantage of it. at some point using fast enough memory to help the graphics would probably negate most of the cost savings of the UMA.

of course, the question also is, do consoles need lots of memory bandwidth right now, since they run at low resolution anyway? when HDTV becomes common that might become a consideration.

[Mod]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
of course, the question also is, do consoles need lots of memory bandwidth right now, since they run at low resolution anyway?

Yes, because it will be inside the computer and use the monitor .

I want to know if nforce X IGP share many characteristics with consoles to the point that it can be considered a semi-console. It is not bs talking. Micro$oft may think like this, and look with bad eyes the development of nforce, since they could think that this product would be a considerable competitor to XBOX, which, as you say, it is still not profitable to M$.

Don't forget that a good part of the revenues of nvidia comes from XBOX, so M$ may have a strong decision power over many of the important products released by NVIDIA if they wished

[StealthHawk]

what can MS really do, they have a contract after all. they have to pay nvidia for each unit.

like i said before, a PC will never become a threat to a console for several reasons

1) standardization of hardware.
2) sales of units(PCs as a whole and more specifically the nforce). ie, there aren't enough PCs sold, and as a subset nforce systems sold that could challenge an established console
3) differences between console and pc markets in terms of games. ie, all console games are guaranteed to run "perfectly" on a console, pc games are not guaranteed to work at all, let alone at a given performance level
4) performance/feature set acceptance differences between PCs and consoles. mainly, games on consoles can be easily optimized to run 50% faster(maybe even more according to Carmack, he either said double the performance for coding on a fixed platform or +50%, i forget which), and take advantage of hardware features. obviously PCs lag 1-2years behind software supporting hardware features.

[Mod]

The reasons 1,3,4 makes me believe that nforce can answer to them as a console. If every new generation of nforce released has a complete back up compatibility, it could have very rigid features, so it can be considered a standard as hardware, so software can be optimized.

There would still be a delay in software development, but if a certain generation was set as a standard, there should be no wories of compatibility issues to the following generations.

What do you think ? How much of nvidia revenues comes from MS ?

What would be the loss, in terms of investiment and competivity, if MS didn't ask nvidia to develop XBOX 2 (considering that no other company would hire nvidia to develop no other next gen console)?

[StealthHawk]

Mod,

i don't know the answer to that(about nvidia's profits from MS).

are you suggesting that nvidia will try to market a nforce platform as a console?

i was under the impression that you were saying it would be a PC, but could also be used as a console. if that's the case, then no one is going to "optimize" for this nforce platform, because it is one of many available PCs as well as nvidia introducing multiple nforces. let me reiterate, there is, and never will be, a PC "standard." as long as there are multiple chip vendors it won't happen. even one manufacturer would have trouble if they produced multiple products during a year.

keeping such compatibility through hardware could also limit innovation, as compatibility would essentially come first.

edit: in an effort to shorten this back and forth dialogue(i think this will be my last installement) let me also reference a previous quote by youAll features are almost fixed, specially the graphic part with the CPU, to increase eficiency, the other parts are flexible.

everything will have to be fixed. basically all 4 reasons i gave in my post are mutually inclusive, that is, they are stacked effects that only happen because the others are true.

also, if nvidia were to release nforces platforms each year, that would be too soon, assuming they want the console effect. having standard hardware that remains a standard is what makes devs code console games. they know a console will be around for ~5 years, unchanged, and that can learn and optimize further for that console during that time frame. a reason why all add-on devices have failed more or less(sega cd, 32x, 64dd, SNES cd). not enough people buy them, and devs don't waste their time making games that support them.

[Mod]

Almost there, but I think I didn't express very well, so you didn't get the point. Farewell :).