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mrrolf
07-09-04, 01:29 PM
Nvidia and ATI have been competing for a few years now. These last round of graphics cards have been a huge jump from previous versions. I find it ironic (or strange) that NV's and ATI's newest cards have almost the same performance. (I say almost... I have my favorite.. but I'm not trying to start a war) I wonder if it is truly a coincidence that they are about the same, or if one company is holding something back.

Maybe there is an actual boundary or limits both companies are stuck at right now. Anyone know of such limits? But the cards a pretty different (from an architecture/design POV), hard to imagine they ended up being almost identical.

Maybe it's because one is copying the other, and doing a damn good job. But this is also pretty unlikely.

I don't know. It almost seems fishy. what do you all think?

saturnotaku
07-09-04, 01:53 PM
or if one company is holding something back.

Let's think about this for a second. Does it make logical sense for a company to "hold back" features on their cards so they can simply stay in the same ballpack as their top rival? That would be like the Yankees trading away their top superstars to Boston in order to make their rivalry more interesting.

mrrolf
07-09-04, 02:15 PM
Not unless you have something better up your sleeve and are just waiting for the right time to unveil it.

I agree, it would be stupid to do. But I remember rumors of ATI changing their cards to have 16 pipes at the last minute to compete with NV. Why didn't they just go with 16 in the first place?

Pandora's Box
07-09-04, 02:17 PM
Not unless you have something better up your sleeve and are just waiting for the right time to unveil it.

I agree, it would be stupid to do. But I remember rumors of ATI changing their cards to have 16 pipes at the last minute to compete with NV. Why didn't they just go with 16 in the first place?


cus they didnt expect the nvidia card to be so powerful

mrrolf
07-09-04, 02:20 PM
right, so they were holding back b/c they didn't think it was going to be that powerful? Then when they saw it they decided to make it even better? Why not assume NV or ATI will have a 128 (yes I know it's rediculous) pipe card.. and start making one to compete with that?

aAv7
07-09-04, 02:25 PM
I dont think anyone is holidng back....thats what the refresh is for! Heh. Anyways, both are so close this time around because

1.) Ati has been solid for the last few years...they know the score, they stuck with an architechure that works, and one they know alot about.

2.) Nvidia made a mess of the FX series, and knew this round, they HAD to get it right or they were in trouble. Well, they got it right.

What you end up with are two companies fighting for the top and the consumer is the true winner. This time around, regardless of which card you pick, it will run whatever you throw at it. Their both solid, they both have their fan bases, they'll both make money. If anything is being held back, i'd say it's supply! Still not one card is available @ retail stores like bb, or circuit city. That's hurting them both, as there are plenty of potential owners out there that dont like purchasing online, or like to binge shop, and grab something in the store they didnt come to get. You have to have product in the store...hopefully this lesson will teach them both come next generation cycle. =)

combat_wombat
07-09-04, 02:34 PM
I think sometimes companies will let their products slide to give the competition *some* marketshare. I think intel did this to get the FTC off their back when they were being investigated for potential antitrust violations

Arioch
07-09-04, 02:36 PM
Not unless you have something better up your sleeve and are just waiting for the right time to unveil it.

I agree, it would be stupid to do. But I remember rumors of ATI changing their cards to have 16 pipes at the last minute to compete with NV. Why didn't they just go with 16 in the first place?

Actually I believe ATI was planning to release the X800 Pro at this time and then use the 16-pipe X800XT as a refresh card. Well it's pretty apparent both companies knew they had great cards on their hands but maybe underestimated each other. This probably led to them pushing their cards to higher core and memory clocks than they planned on right now. This is one of many reasons why the high end cards are so hard to find months after their supposed launch. I do believe the stories of trouble getting the 1.6ns memory used on the high end cards but I would not be surprised if both companies are having worse than usual yield issues on the GPU's also.

jbirney
07-09-04, 02:38 PM
But I remember rumors of ATI changing their cards to have 16 pipes at the last minute to compete with NV. Why didn't they just go with 16 in the first place?

This is pure BS. There is no way you can just "tack" on 4 extra pixel pipelines in an ASIC. You have a number of issues to deal with. The ATI part was 16 pipelines from the start. Anything you may have heard is just wild rumors..


But on the tread yes its very close. I am going to pick up a 6800GT as soon as I can find one in my neck of the woods for 399ish (want to hold out till the price drops a bit more on them).

Jarred
07-09-04, 02:41 PM
This is pure BS. There is no way you can just "tack" on 4 extra pixel pipelines in an ASIC. You have a number of issues to deal with. The ATI part was 16 pipelines from the start. Anything you may have heard is just wild rumors..


But on the tread yes its very close. I am going to pick up a 6800GT as soon as I can find one in my neck of the woods for 399ish (want to hold out till the price drops a bit more on them).

yeah I heard those same rumors, ...are ATi's 16pipe cards available right now? All I've seen is the x800pro...

To me Nvidia takes it becasue it offers better features, and better driver support.

How bout those new Anantech reviews!? :P

anzak
07-09-04, 02:43 PM
I agree, it would be stupid to do. But I remember rumors of ATI changing their cards to have 16 pipes at the last minute to compete with NV.


ATI did not add pixel pipelines at the last minute, the R420 core was designed to be a 16 pixel pipeline GPU.

Both companies are also limited to the advancements in memory. Why spend the time and money to develop a ultra fast GPU only to have it limited by slow and/or expensive memory.

anzak
07-09-04, 02:44 PM
yeah I heard those same rumors, ...are ATi's 16pipe cards available right now?

Yes a few have leaked out.

jbirney
07-09-04, 02:49 PM
yeah I heard those same rumors, ...are ATi's 16pipe cards available right now? All I've seen is the x800pro...

Well we have had users that posted here that have them :)

How bout those new Anantech reviews!? :P

Oh U mean the Farcry PS3.0 were they did not have AA on but claimed they did? Sorry I dont really trust Anantech and not because of any bias. But because the person that writes the review normally does not run the test but has some one else do it. And little mistakes like this happen all the time with them. No one is prefect but lately you have to wonder if they just have a bad day or are the just not competent anymore....

Arioch
07-09-04, 02:49 PM
yeah I heard those same rumors, ...are ATi's 16pipe cards available right now? All I've seen is the x800pro...

To me Nvidia takes it becasue it offers better features, and better driver support.

How bout those new Anantech reviews!? :P

The X800XT cards are about as hard to get a hold of as the 6800 Ultra cards but some people are getting them. I have had a X800XT for almost a month now. I was originally planning on getting a 6800 Ultra but they weren't anywhere to be found then and I happened to be lucky to get one of a small shipment that Str8buy.com had in early June.

I may go back to Nvidia for their refresh device if PS3.0 games take off but right now only Far Cry is really using it and one game doesn't justify a new card purchase at this time. At the end of the year that may be a different story though.

evilchris
07-09-04, 02:55 PM
I personally feel the 16 pipe X800 was originally supposed to be the fall refresh. Without NVIDIA, they would have only released the X800 PRO. Companies feed the public as slow as they can. Why sell an upgrade to a customer every 3 years when you can do it every 6 months?

Arioch
07-09-04, 02:56 PM
I personally feel the 16 pipe X800 was originally supposed to be the fall refresh. Without NVIDIA, they would have only released the X800 PRO. Companies feed the public as slow as they can. Why sell an upgrade to a customer every 3 years when you can do it every 6 months?

Good point - wish I would have said that. Errr, nevermind!

:angel2:

mustrum
07-09-04, 02:57 PM
Not unless you have something better up your sleeve and are just waiting for the right time to unveil it.

I agree, it would be stupid to do. But I remember rumors of ATI changing their cards to have 16 pipes at the last minute to compete with NV. Why didn't they just go with 16 in the first place?

Hmm i am not sure if this is even possible. I don't think you can just add 8 pipes right beforew the cards go retail. If you think of a x800 with 8 pipes you got a 9800 XT with slightly higher clock basically. I don't think they ever planned to release such a card.

The NV40 is much more powerful as most people expected tho i agree there.
For us costumers this is heavin since the companies have to fight for costumers now.
I'm glad they are so close.

Arioch
07-09-04, 03:06 PM
This is a great time to buy a video card as both companies have some great cards to choose from. I don't think you can really pick one and make a bad choice this time around.

Of course it would be nice if we could actually get them right now!

jbirney
07-09-04, 03:11 PM
I personally feel the 16 pipe X800 was originally supposed to be the fall refresh. Without NVIDIA, they would have only released the X800 PRO. Companies feed the public as slow as they can. Why sell an upgrade to a customer every 3 years when you can do it every 6 months?

I dont buy that at all. Their fall refresh was a R420 core on .11 um process with a small speed bumb IIRC.

SH64
07-09-04, 03:12 PM
I personally feel the 16 pipe X800 was originally supposed to be the fall refresh. Without NVIDIA, they would have only released the X800 PRO. Companies feed the public as slow as they can. Why sell an upgrade to a customer every 3 years when you can do it every 6 months?

Very good point . thats what i'm thinking too .

i'm really thankfull that we have 2 major video chipsets compaines challenging each other instead of one ruler .. otherwise .. tech will just move too slow & the biggest loser will be the end-user .

jbirney
07-09-04, 03:14 PM
This is a great time to buy a video card as both companies have some great cards to choose from. I don't think you can really pick one and make a bad choice this time around.

Of course it would be nice if we could actually get them right now!

I agree I think either is a good choice. I went with ATI back in the 9700 days as it was the much better choice. Now I have no idea and will get both (as I have two PCs in needed of a video card upgrade) but want to space out the cash envestiment a bit :)

qballshalls2002
07-09-04, 04:11 PM
Nvidia and ATI have been competing for a few years now. These last round of graphics cards have been a huge jump from previous versions. I find it ironic (or strange) that NV's and ATI's newest cards have almost the same performance. (I say almost... I have my favorite.. but I'm not trying to start a war) I wonder if it is truly a coincidence that they are about the same, or if one company is holding something back.

Maybe there is an actual boundary or limits both companies are stuck at right now. Anyone know of such limits? But the cards a pretty different (from an architecture/design POV), hard to imagine they ended up being almost identical.

Maybe it's because one is copying the other, and doing a damn good job. But this is also pretty unlikely.

I don't know. It almost seems fishy. what do you all think?


Well it is ironic but every company who competes always has the same performance,same items,and same features.AMD's new A64 processors have similar performance compared to Intels Prescott processors.Walgreens and Excerds have same products and service.Walmart and Kmart are direct competetors.Credit card companies like Amex,Visa,Mastercard all have similar products like platinum cards and such.So its part of business. (mag)

Jarred
07-09-04, 04:26 PM
Well we have had users that posted here that have them :)



Oh U mean the Farcry PS3.0 were they did not have AA on but claimed they did? Sorry I dont really trust Anantech and not because of any bias. But because the person that writes the review normally does not run the test but has some one else do it. And little mistakes like this happen all the time with them. No one is prefect but lately you have to wonder if they just have a bad day or are the just not competent anymore....

ah, no the new reviews that just came out like... today.

qballshalls2002
07-09-04, 05:06 PM
Let's think about this for a second. Does it make logical sense for a company to "hold back" features on their cards so they can simply stay in the same ballpack as their top rival? That would be like the Yankees trading away their top superstars to Boston in order to make their rivalry more interesting.

Video card have to hold off on newer technology..Heres why?

Video card companies have to hold back due to expenses and technolgy avaliblility.We all know that nVidia,ATi or any other graphic company could easily drop 512mbs of GDDR ram,20mbs or more eDram,or a 32x2 pipe on a high end vid ca.The reason why they hold off will be,expenses.If they actually released that card right now,it would be well over 1.5 thousand bucks.But if they released this type of card a year or two later,it could probadly manage in the $499 range due to technology prices falling.

pat777
07-09-04, 05:15 PM
ATI did not add pixel pipelines at the last minute, the R420 core was designed to be a 16 pixel pipeline GPU.

Both companies are also limited to the advancements in memory. Why spend the time and money to develop a ultra fast GPU only to have it limited by slow and/or expensive memory.
If we see shader intensive games memory bandwidth will not be important. Shaders help get rid of the need for memory bandwidth.