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Gaco
07-20-04, 08:56 AM
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=16782

"This means that in Doom 3, Nvidia's tech is likely to be much faster then ATI's R420. We heard as much as 50 per cent faster but we'll have to wait for the official release and do our own tests to verify that."

If that is true, there will be a little doubt for me that 6800U is my kind of card :clap:

Although on the other hand:

"Gabe claimed the X800 is 40% faster than the GeForce 6800 for Half Life 2 and confirmed that we’ll see Half Life 2 this summer."

http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=6535

Decisions, decisions... :|

Riptide
07-20-04, 08:59 AM
Both 50 and 40 percent seem exagerrated to me. But then what do I know..

Gaco
07-20-04, 09:07 AM
Nothing, like the rest of us :D

Anyway, before the new cards hit the retailers in my country Doom3 will be out and properbly also Half-Life 2, so I will hopefully have some benchmark results to my disposal at that time :)

Code_Fuzion
07-20-04, 09:10 AM
You also have to think what Driver Versions they were running for both cards. Driver versions that didnt support hte new cards would not have much performance to it.

Warden13
07-20-04, 09:12 AM
It's pretty widely known that ATI hasn't touched their OpenGL drivers in about 2 years (You'll see NV 40 beating the R420 by 50% or so in Call of Duty for example). It's more of a driver issue than a technology issue. ATI has stated that they decided to do a completer rewrite of their Open GL drivers and I wouldn't be surprised if it's available soon. My guess is that within 2 months of Doom 3 being released the two cards are within 10% of one another. Probably see similar results in HL 2.

Warden

burningrave101
07-20-04, 09:22 AM
Well i know its not a very good comparison but in the HL2 beta the 6800's are ahead of the X800's.

http://www.ixbt-labs.com/articles2/gffx/nv40-3-p4.html#p21

Until high AF is enabled the 6800u is in the lead by 5 fps. After that the PE is in the lead by 5 fps.

I'm hopeing nVidia increases their AF optimization performance in the coming months. ATI's AF optimizations are the only thing giving them a slight edge in some of the D3D games. The X800's scale perfectly from 2xAF - 8xAF. The 6800's do not and lose most of their performance right there.

The 6800u is faster with the AF off in nearly every game and at most any resolution so its the faster hardware currently. Its all a matter of what the driver teams can put togethor now.

I dont think its any question which will be faster in Doom3. D3 is fully OpenGL. nVidia excells in OpenGL. ATI has been going on about their Linux drivers as well, and how their going to vastly improve them. Talk is cheap. I'll believe it when i see it lol.

Warden13
07-20-04, 09:24 AM
I hardly think improving Linux drivers can be lumped in with Open GL performance. ATI knows full well how bad it will look for them if D3 performs significantly better on Nvidia hardware. I doubt their engineers have the same worries about Linux.

W

Code_Fuzion
07-20-04, 09:26 AM
I believe it may take about 3 or 4 revisions for them to pull the AF and AA optimizations out for the 6800 or NV40 series. That seems to have always been whats been lagging NVidia. We know the hardware can do it ... its just a matter of the drivers getting it right. Heres hoping for the next or the next next official drivers to get the AA and AF smooth like buttah

Jocomp10
07-20-04, 10:51 AM
also the nv40 can process 32 colerless pixels per clock, the r420 can not. That should give it a nice boost in doom 3 since it has heavy shadow usage.

Gator
07-20-04, 10:58 AM
50% and 40% have to be exagerations. And yes, I'm sure ATI's opengl rewrite will help. But either way I'm confident both the 6800 and X800 will handle HL2 and D3 just fine. Sometimes I wonder if these folks claim these percentages just because NV or ATI are paying the bills :nanahump:

Nutty
07-20-04, 10:59 AM
also the nv40 can process 32 colerless pixels per clock, the r420 can not

You mean nv40 can do 32 Z writes or stencil operations per clock. R420 can do this, but only when MSAA is enabled.

burningrave101
07-20-04, 11:00 AM
I hardly think improving Linux drivers can be lumped in with Open GL performance. ATI knows full well how bad it will look for them if D3 performs significantly better on Nvidia hardware. I doubt their engineers have the same worries about Linux.

W

Oh you dont? Well applications and games in Linux are ran in OpenGL instead of D3D and thats the reason i lumped it in there.

5150 Joker
07-20-04, 11:02 AM
http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=16782



If that is true, there will be a little doubt for me that 6800U is my kind of card :clap:

Although on the other hand:



http://www.firingsquad.com/news/newsarticle.asp?searchid=6535

Decisions, decisions... :|


I doubt both figures but I think Doom 3 will end up being faster on nVidia cards simply because they do render shadows better and HL2 may end up faster with ATi cards because of optimizations gabe might do.

Gator
07-20-04, 11:18 AM
I doubt both figures but I think Doom 3 will end up being faster on nVidia cards simply because they do render shadows better and HL2 may end up faster with ATi cards because of optimizations gabe might do.

Oh absolutely! I have no doubt in my mind that D3 will be faster with NV, but jesus not 50% !!!!

evilchris
07-20-04, 11:23 AM
It's pretty widely known that ATI hasn't touched their OpenGL drivers in about 2 years (You'll see NV 40 beating the R420 by 50% or so in Call of Duty for example). It's more of a driver issue than a technology issue. ATI has stated that they decided to do a completer rewrite of their Open GL drivers and I wouldn't be surprised if it's available soon. My guess is that within 2 months of Doom 3 being released the two cards are within 10% of one another. Probably see similar results in HL 2.

Warden

I wouldn't put faith in ATI's "new" OpenGL driver. If they couldn't do a proper one the 1st time what makes you think they can now? NVIDIA"s OGL driver has years of finesse on it. ATI can't just crap a new one out and have it running perfect.

Warden13
07-20-04, 11:27 AM
I wouldn't put faith in ATI's "new" OpenGL driver. If they couldn't do a proper one the 1st time what makes you think they can now? NVIDIA"s OGL driver has years of finesse on it. ATI can't just crap a new one out and have it running perfect.

That's what everyone said about their D3D drivers a couple of years ago. Today they are as good and in many cases superior to Nvidia's. My point is simply that the card are going to deliver awfully close performance across the board.

Warden

EXLINK
07-20-04, 12:49 PM
I think those numbers are way over exaggerated. I remember reading that the 9800 Pro plays Half-Life 2 at highest settings and a pretty high resolution. Well I'm 95% sure that the 6800 will play better than the 9800 Pro because of its 16 pipelines and 256MB GDDR3 VRam, so I would expect some higher settings. The thing that may give the X800's a large lead (but I seriously doubt 40%) is 3Dc. Half-Life 2 is supposed to use extensive 3Dc compression. I guess the difference between the X800 and 6800 series will be around 20%, but I doubt that it will be much of a difference because supposedly the 6800 can play it at high(est) settings

As for Doom 3, the 6800's will play it better (50% better, I doubt it as well) because of its UltraShadow II technology that will help stencil shading a lot. Doom 3 is a heavy stencil shading game, and US2 should help a LOT, I would guess that the 6800's will have a 15% - 20% lead over the X800 series.

Nv40
07-20-04, 02:37 PM
That's what everyone said about their D3D drivers a couple of years ago. Today they are as good and in many cases superior to Nvidia's. My point is simply that the card are going to deliver awfully close performance across the board.

Warden


steeda is right...

you simply can't expect ATI in just 1 driver to "fix" all their driver issues (it could issues at the hardware level..we dont know) to have OpenGL running same level as DIrect3d. Nvidia have many many years tweaking their drivers , so a miracle Opengl performance is not something you will see in just a single driver revision..neither Nvidia in sitting in their hands they have a lot of room for improvements ,since they have a 100% complete new arquitecture in the NV40 .in other words.. dont hold your breath.. by the time they are "fixed" we could be playing in R500's or Nv50's cards.. :drooling:

another thing to consider is not only ATI will need to deal with OpenGL ,but also with Nvidia stellar performance benchmarks where shadows/bumpmaping/and multiple textures are used in games.

if you ask me.. this is what i believe..
No.. ATI X800's are not going to fly in Doom3 at -highest resolutions- and IQ settings..but far from that. neither 6800's..
however i still think that both (the ones with 16pipes) will play fine Doom3 at 1024x768 AA/AF..with Nv cards being a tad faster there.

While Doom3 will be playable all the way in Geforce3/radeon8500 cards (using lowest quality/resolutions settings ..shadows off :)) ,still official Idsoftware words are that you will need up to 500megs GPus ,to play Doom3 in their Ultra extreme quality.

so buy the hardware that play better your games at the moment they are released..whether is Hl2 or Doom3, "waiting" for a company to fix something quickly in just a driver revision they have not done in years is wishfullthinking.

jbirney
07-20-04, 02:38 PM
According the the PC mag Doom3 review that was posted then removed here the review stated that both the ATI/NV new cards ran doom very well with the NV part being a bit faster. I doubt a "bit faster" is 50% :)

Nv40
07-20-04, 02:53 PM
According the the PC mag Doom3 review that was posted then removed here the review stated that both the ATI/NV new cards ran doom very well with the NV part being a bit faster. I doubt a "bit faster" is 50% :)

if the 6800ultra is "a bit faster" than the X800xtpe with AA/AF that still will be impressive. since the Xtpe's are clocked 125mhz higher ,(much higher fillrate a must have in Doom3) and also can do 32x0 ,albeit only with AA. the more interesting competition will be the X800pros vs 6800Gt's ..the only ones available from ATI and NV in mass quantities. :)

probably the new X800Gt have something to do with all this.. :)
a side note ,dont know why but i have the feeling that ATI will have a bit of trouble marketing all their latest cards as the hardware to get in Hl2. :)

Gaco
07-20-04, 02:57 PM
So the question is, do you trust The inquirer's sources or PC Gamer? Turn it around and say I doubt 50% is a "bit faster".

Anyway, im not saying that im believing these numbers. I fact, im not sure what to believe until I see a real test for evidence :)

Vagrant Zero
07-20-04, 03:57 PM
I got the impression that PCGamer was running the game with a 6800. Just a 6800. Not GT, Ultra, or UE.

Bill The Cat
07-20-04, 04:42 PM
Come on folks, it's The Inquirer. RAND has a book of random numbers that gives more accurate data than the speculation The Inquirer publishes.

evilchris
07-20-04, 05:16 PM
I wish Carmack would just release some benches and end this debate.

Gaco
07-20-04, 05:27 PM
I think we all want benchies of Doom3 very soon, which WILL end this debate, although its not like im annoyed by this debate :)

Anyway, it was also just some info I just fell over at The Inquirer, im not taking it too serious either.