View Full Version : I am dubious about ATI's OpenGL rewrite now.
ChrisRay
07-30-04, 02:01 PM
http://www.techreport.com/onearticle.x/7116
Everyones been touting a complete rewrite, But from the looks of it its gonna be from a software to software aproach. I imagine this is going to disapoint alot of fans. But IMO it also leaves the questions. Which software will get tweaked and which wont.
jbirney
07-30-04, 02:07 PM
To change something as big as your OpenGL drivers I could see where a incremental approach makes some sense. For example say if you Fubar something, at least you can back trak to see where you missed up. Going with one big shot is much harder to trouble shoot and support. So while it may disappoint ATI fans its probably for the best from the end users/support standpoint.
Yeah, that seems different from everything people have been saying as they tried to reassure people that help was on the way. Except for the performance not being all that great, I think the opengl driver has improved some though (mainly in regards to stability).
I was also a little surprised to see him mention that the incremental driver update policy is being deemed a success. I've felt like it has caused a lot more problems than it has solved since they have a habit of breaking stuff that was working every release. It just keeps everyone upset and about the time everyone has gotten over it, another driver is released and it starts all over again.
fivefeet8
07-30-04, 02:16 PM
Didn't they say earlier that Ati's current OGL driver is plagued with old and obsolete code that would require a rewrite to fix?
I have noticed improvements in OpenGL performance the last few driver releases so I am betting they will get their overall OpenGL speed on par with Nvidia at some point. I am sure ATI realizes that their OpenGL code is a thorn in their side and they are putting extra resources to make it better.
This is a good thing for people with both ATI and Nvidia cards I think as developers won't have to worry about losing potential customers because some ATI users may not get the performance they expect for an OpenGL-based game and not buy it or return it for a refund. This could lead to more OpenGL titles on the market with more eye candy thrown in.
hehe reminds me of 3dfx when they were behind in opengl
Didn't they say earlier that Ati's current OGL driver is plagued with old and obsolete code that would require a rewrite to fix?
Yerah everyone has been saying that even ATi, I don't think they will improve thier ogl dirvers much. Just a good excuse to not do anything for this line of cards.
I have noticed improvements in OpenGL performance the last few driver releases so I am betting they will get their overall OpenGL speed on par with Nvidia at some point.
Have you tried the latest 4.8 beta? I had read that it included some of the new opengl code but it seemed noticeably worse to me than the 4.7s. Someone else, in another thread, mentioned they didn't think it was included so who knows. Of course, it's just beta also.
Well I have been snooping around Rage3D long enough to see subtle hints from inside people (no, not Hellbinder) that the OpenGL code is supposedly being re-written from scratch by people ATI hired for this specific reason. This sure sounds more plausible than people thinking they won't work on them at all.
Nvidia has a solid OpenGL code but it is a bit ignorant to think that no one else could get their OpenGL on par if they apply the proper resources to it. Of course this may take an indefinite amount of time to complete so who knows.
I am not picking on anyone in particular here but just posting my thoughts on this subject.
Have you tried the latest 4.8 beta? I had read that it included some of the new opengl code but it seemed noticeably worse to me than the 4.7s. Someone else, in another thread, mentioned they didn't think it was included so who knows. Of course, it's just beta also.
It has been posted by some people that the 4.8 beta drivers that are floating around are an older set than the ones used to benchmark the 1.2 Far Cry patch. I have the 4.8 drivers and can verify that instancing is not available on these drivers for the game like they are on the tested version. I tend to think the next official release will be quite a bit different than the beta drivers out now.
But when ya think about how thier response just changed I don't think they can do anything for this line of cards. Its going to take a good 6 months from now for brand new drivers to appear. In the meantime they might get 2-5% increase in performance.
Well I never had a problem running OpenGL games on my ATI cards but I always had a high end card.
Ninja Prime
07-30-04, 05:28 PM
Let me see here... you bitch about them having worse OpenGL drivers than Nv, but now they plan to rewrite them and make them better and youre disappointed and pissed. :rolleyes:
No bais there!
GlowStick
07-30-04, 07:01 PM
Um,
I think that they mean that preformance gains will only show up in doom3, no other opengl apps.
Thats the blunt translation. I can only see that as a good thing for all ATi users though, better fps.
evilchris
07-30-04, 07:15 PM
Well I never had a problem running OpenGL games on my ATI cards but I always had a high end card.
You should have ran CoD on CAT 3.8 =)
Ninja, who are you talking to?
Ninja Prime
07-30-04, 07:57 PM
Ninja, who are you talking to?
It was directed towards chris, though it works well enough for anyone else with the same attitude.
ChrisRay
07-30-04, 08:05 PM
It was directed towards chris, though it works well enough for anyone else with the same attitude.
I'm sure you can find numerous occasions where I have spent my time complaining about Ati's OpenGL.
Let me see here... you bitch about them having worse OpenGL drivers than Nv, but now they plan to rewrite them and make them better and youre disappointed and pissed. :rolleyes:
No bais there!
I guess I was disappointed because I thought they were rewriting the drivers from the ground up and one day we'd get this great, new and improved driver. But, from the quote, it sounds like they'll just continue to tweak the current driver. Like jbirney mentioned, it probably didn't make sense to just one day release this new and improved driver but I've seen so many people say that I guess I just started thinking that was the plan.
MontoyaSG
07-30-04, 09:40 PM
probably some application specific tweaks meant to improve D3 performance??
Nvidia has a solid OpenGL code but it is a bit ignorant to think that no one else could get their OpenGL on par if they apply the proper resources to it. Of course this may take an indefinite amount of time to complete so who knows.
you have a point there. but to say that definitively there will be an opengl (Doom3) improvement ,just because ATI is rewriting their OpenGl drivers , its nothing more than an assumption . i use Doom3 as an example because thats the reason most people justify the lack of stellar performance in ATI cards in that game vs Nvidia similar hardware.
There is a possibility that the "problem" with ATI (Doom3) have nothing to do with drivers ,but with hardware. N4x hardware is heavily optimized for Doom3 ,can do 32x0 ,have UltraSHadowII ,are a lot more powerfull with heavy texturing and Bumpmaping in games ,according to syntetic benchmarks ,as a a bonus have solid OpenGl drivers. if you look a Doom3 benchmarks you will notice that the 6800ultra/GT/nonultra are not far from each other ,but close ,in other games the diferences are atronomical ,sometimes the Ultra have 2xtimes the speed of the non ultra.. and Nvidia doesnt have issues in their OpenGl drivers. it looks like the major gains in Doom3 performance doesnt come from the many pipes/memory clocks or fillrate ,but about how efficient the hardware is handling SHadows /speculars and bumpmaping in the game. and that will explain why the geforce6800 nu 12pipes was slightly faster that the XTpe which is clocked a 3miles ahead in memory and core clocks and with more pipes.
So while is possible to see a significant boost in performance with ATi "rewrite" in openGl ,even miracle drivers that keeps with Nvidia ,there is also another possibility that people overlook easily and its that the complete rewrite doesnt help in any way the performance ,but only give much better stability in OpenGl aplications. Drivers can do wonders ,but they never can be better that the hardware limitations. just like the Geforcefx line under Directx9. the best way to study future performance improvements in ATi cards is to test them in pure performance noAA/noAF. Otherwise you may end measuring filtering optimization tricks .since they can easily down scale their AF algorithm all the way to pure performance quality mode as their default "High quality",and still it will look like is doing Full trilinear under mipmaps colors aplications. so dont take anything for granted. nobody knows the future.
fivefeet8
07-31-04, 12:46 AM
I thought they weren't rewriting their OGL drivers. Just going to do what they've been doing. Updating them without a full rewrite.
I thought they weren't rewriting their OGL drivers. Just going to do what they've been doing. Updating them without a full rewrite.
I think they are doing both actually. They are probably taking some of the new code and adding it into their drivers when it is plausible to do so.
Kombatant
07-31-04, 04:36 AM
I think they are doing both actually. They are probably taking some of the new code and adding it into their drivers when it is plausible to do so.
That's how I would phrase it as well.
ChrisRay
07-31-04, 04:40 AM
Anyway, before Ninja so delicately flamed me. (obviously knowing nothing about the nature of my post)
I was expecting a complete openGL rewrite. Not a title to title opengl tweak, Now while the Doom 3 updates are probably good. And hey I'm all for that. I'm mostly discouraged by the fact that the code will probably do nothing for Neverwinter Nights or Half Life,
I was really looking forward to a complete opengl rewrite which would have a net result in all opengl titles. Now it looks from this quote. It's only gonna affect a select few bigger titles.
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