More on Israel's Lack of Peace

[1stFlight]

Now, getting the new government they asked for, they block it. Talk about sending mixed signals (http://abc.net.au/news/2002/10/item20021029001849_1.htm)

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Bah, you expect them to let the enemy thru after another terrorist attack? No way!

[1stFlight]

I made this point earlier, if Arafats people aren't in change the next step the Palestinians are going to take is to elect Hamas to represent them. Arafat may be many things wicked, but to his benifit he's a negotiator. Hamas negotiation involves weapons. Israel does not want Hamas in change of the millions of Palestinians at their borders, that would make suicide bombing look like a pleasant daydream. Hamas would pull no punches, after all they already know, they have nothing to lose. It's in Israels best interest to let the Palestinian cabinet through. Keep in mind these are the very people Bush and the world demanded Arafat put in place. So I fail to see how Israel's actions in this case further the cause of peace, more they are causing more insablity. Unfortunately, Sharon is terribly short sighted.

Say what you like about me, but my goals are peace and equality for all in the region. That is why I completely support divestment from Israel.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
Say what you like about me, but my goals are peace and equality for all in the region. That is why I completely support divestment from Israel.

That may be what you want for those people, but it is not what those people want. Palestinians don't want peace, they want Israel. Israel is not innocent, but they don't blow up children and women up on purpose, when it does happen, it is because those extremists put their assets in heavily civilian areas. If they want to fight Israel, start a real war. Heck, get Iraq and any other nation that wants to join in to fight again, it will just turn out the same way it did last time.

[1stFlight]

Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu
That may be what you want for those people, but it is not what those people want. Palestinians don't want peace, they want Israel.


Israel wants Palestinian lands, how else do you explain their 145 illegal settlements? Sounds to me like Israel wants to expand over the Palestinians at will and anyone that offer resistance is labeled a "terrorist" ,or a "militant" instad of someone defending their homes. More on that point here (http://news.independent.co.uk/world/middle_east/story.jsp?story=346842)

Israel is not innocent, but they don't blow up children and women up on purpose,


Of course they do, the entire world know it, it's suppressed here in the U.S. (http://www.scoop.co.nz/mason/stories/WO0210/S00012.htm) They willingly use lethal force against Palestinians but never against Jews. As such they are no longer worthy of our unbiased support.

when it does happen, it is because those extremists put their assets in heavily civilian areas.

It's not like the IDF would care either way, they'll bomb in populated areas(with an American made F-16, in violating of our own rules governming military sales). They don't care who they hurt either. They're the new Nazi's of the Middle East

If they want to fight Israel, start a real war.


With Israel, that's insane and uneccessary. They're a nuclear nation and are more than willing to use it. Divestment is the peaceful and moral alternative.

Heck, get Iraq and any other nation that wants to join in to fight again, it will just turn out the same way it did last time.

Live and Learn, the old ways get replaced, and the new ways spare lives.

[Phyre]

If I were Palestinian and someone, who is on the hit list of multiple nations, walks into the same public place that I am in, I would nonchalantly but swiftly leave that public place.

Survival of the (mentally)-fittest, baby!!!

Phyre

[1stFlight]

Originally posted by Phyre
If I were Palestinian and someone, who is on the hit list of multiple nations, walks into the same public place that I am in, I would nonchalantly but swiftly leave that public place.

Survival of the (mentally)-fittest, baby!!!

Phyre

Like they walk in with a sign on their chest, get real.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
Like they walk in with a sign on their chest, get real.

No, I think they prefer to walk in with bombs strapped to their chests instead of signs.:rolleyes:

[1stFlight]

Originally posted by [eNv]-LORD-eX-Bu
No, I think they prefer to walk in with bombs strapped to their chests instead of signs.:rolleyes:
Not really, no more than the japanese really wanted to send good pilots in the battle as living missles (win or lose, you lose a good pilot). After a point you simply run out of choices. People who've read their history know this already, I'm surprised you don't. *shrugs* oh well, at least now I know to vote for my next school levy.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

Run out of choices have they? hmm... they seem to have many sympathisers in the region and abroad, why not appeal to them for action? That is one choice they have. If they really wanted to, they could just get together and take back Israel. These people are far from running out of choices, running out of choices is like being stuck in a concentration camp and knowing that in a matter of time you are gonna be dead. These palestinians aren't facing that, and if they would appeal to the US, and force Hamas and other groups to stop the terrorist attacks on Israel, then things would change. As it stands, they have not done so. Israel can't do that, why? because they are already the US's ally, and are already getting support. If the palestinians actually stopped the terrorism, which they can, they could change the opinion of the american public and in turn force the leaders of the US to rethink their strategy. But that will never happen, so this is my last post, I will not feed this thread any longer. Ade.

[ibGoodEnuf]

1st,

How dare you call israel the nazis of anything! Prior to WW2 there were 11,000,000 jews in the world after the war there were 5,000,000 of us. I lost family to the Nazis and because so many of us were slaughtered Britain gave us land to settle. It was of course given to us by God 6,000 years ago, but who's counting. That land is ours. Had Jordan, Syria, Egypt, et al not decided to attack Israel in 1967 or 1973 than Israel would not feel the pressure she does to increase security zones around herself. BTW, Jordan is Palestine. Over 75% of the population of Jordan is Palestinian. Let them have that land. They turned down an excellent offer in 1998 and now they must live with that decision. You appear at this point to simply be anti-semetic. You are backing the wrong team pal.

[Phyre]

ibGoodEnuf, the one thing that reverberates through my mind these days from going to church (Christian) is this passage:

Genesis 12:3

And I will bless them that bless thee, and curse him that curseth thee: and in thee shall all families of the earth be blessed.

As big as the U.S. is, we could have sided with the Arab nations long, long ago. They have the oil, right? But, there is good reason we haven't.

Phyre

[intercede007]

Ok I don't get it. Can I get an explanation?

[Phyre]

I probably won't do this justice, so I would suggest reading Genesis chapters 12-35 to get a better understanding of what I'm about to try to portray.

Abram has his name changed to Abraham by God in Genesis 17. Throughout Genesis, Abraham is told that his seed (descendants) will be a great nation. Abraham eventually has a son named Isaac. Isaac and his wife have twins, Jacob and Esau. The offspring of Jacob and Esau are promised to be two great nations. Jacob buys Esau's birthright (rights to lands, leadership, etc.). Later, Jacob's name is changed to Israel, hence, the birth of the nation of Israel.

So, in Genesis 12:2 when God tells Abram (a.k.a. Abraham),

"And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing:"

and coupling that with what I've tried to expain above, God is essentially saying, in Genisis 12:3, that he will bless those that bless Israel and curse those that curse Israel.

That is my poor attempt at trying to explain that post that I made earlier. If anyone has any corrections or additions to be made, please do so.

Phyre

[sbp]

Arafat to oust reform minister (http://www.washtimes.com/world/20021028-90562744.htm)

Palestinian Authority Chairman Yasser Arafat is expected to replace his reform-minded security minister with a longtime loyalist in a Cabinet reshuffle as early as today.

On the way out is Security Minister Abdel Razak Yehiyeh, who was brought to Mr. Arafat's Cabinet five months ago and turned out to be a reformer determined to halt participation by Palestinian security officials in attacks on Israelis.

He is to be replaced by Hani el Hassan, 69, a veteran leader in Mr. Arafat's Fatah faction of the Palestinian Authority.

"[Mr. Yehiyeh] was overambitious. He didn't know where the red lines were," said one aide to Mr. Arafat. "He was angering people inside the PA and the security forces. He wanted to bash all the Hamas cells and disarm all the Fatah gunmen."

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
Not really, no more than the japanese really wanted to send good pilots in the battle as living missles (win or lose, you lose a good pilot). After a point you simply run out of choices. People who've read their history know this already, I'm surprised you don't. *shrugs* oh well, at least now I know to vote for my next school levy.

clearly a different scenario than the Israel-Palestine conflict. Japan realized that convential means would be totally ineffective at winning against the Americans. full Japanese resistance was basically a last ditch effort to stave off the inevitable and perhaps to stop it.

however, Palestine will never get rid of Israel on its own. it's not going to happen. their suicide bombings are totally different in nature because of the situation.
Britain gave us land to settle.

and that is one of the problems, many people dispute the matter as to whether or not Britain had a right to give away land that wasn't theirs.

[1stFlight]

Originally posted by ibGoodEnuf
1st,

How dare you call israel the nazis of anything!

I find it well deserved, I don't call people Nazi's without good cause. I find it an offensive title that is meant to be offensive when you consider there's not a acre of Israeli land that didn't once have Palestinians on it. Being an American I can't imagine what it must be like to have someone come into my house and kick me out of it by force. Then toss me into a camp and insult me for complaining or even trying to defend myself. It's an insulting title well earned.


Prior to WW2 there were 11,000,000 jews in the world after the war there were 5,000,000 of us.

I hear this a lot, is there a civilization on this planet that hasn't suffered horrible losses? I'll give you this though, yours was a far more recent loss, but no excuse to do the same to the Palestinians.

I lost family to the Nazis and because so many of us were slaughtered Britain gave us land to settle.

I am sorry for your loss, I mean that.

It was of course given to us by God 6,000 years ago, but who's counting. That land is ours.

See here is the problem, I'm sure the Indians thought their "God" gave them America too, we see what happened. Just because it's in the bible untold centuries ago there was an Israel doesn't mean jack today. If that were the case we'd have to rewrite maps all over the globe. Talk about unrealistic.

Had Jordan, Syria, Egypt, et al not decided to attack Israel in 1967

Actually Israel attacked them first. Remember the part about destroying Egypts entire Air Force while it was still on the ground. Impressive attack posture, eh?

or 1973
than Israel would not feel the pressure she does to increase security zones around herself.

Security zones, Israel has over 200 nukes, no one is going to attack them, Israel is expanding because it wants the area, no other reason.
[/b[
BTW, Jordan is Palestine. Over 75% of the population of Jordan is Palestinian. Let them have that land.
[b]
Jordan is Jordan, just like Canada is Canada and not America, don't get confused. Simply because some Palestinian refugees live there doesn't mean the country changed hands. You must live in a strange world where if I illegally evict from your house that you own it's somehow okay if you neighbor lets you in.

They turned down an excellent offer in 1998

It was a good offer, I'll give you that. But there were problems. Again, Slate had an article called, "Was Arafat Really the Problem?". When you're feeling more openminded you'd do well to read it. And of course who assassinated the man that offered that plan? An Israeli settler, who like you thought the whole of land belonged to only Israel. Reality check at best, for peace, you all will have to learn to share

and now they must live with that decision. You appear at this point to simply be anti-semetic. You are backing the wrong team pal.

No I can't back anyone who sponsors terrorism, civilian or state sponsored. As for appearences they are quite decieving, even through your rant, I don't hate you, or even really dislike you (assuming your Jewish), or any Jewish person, I just disagree with you and that is my right as an American.

[jnd3]

Arafat is not a negotiator.

How many of the bomb-laden lunatics have ties to Arafat's Fatah party, or are in some other way directly linked to him? Something like 75% or more? Probably more like 95%.

Remember, Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994. Since then he's worked tirelessly for peace. :rolleyes:

Either way, Arafat is irrelevant. If he CAN control the explosive-strapped fanatics and WON'T, then he's not the type of guy with whom one negotiates. If he CAN'T control the destruction-wielding nutjobs, then he's impotent, and negotiations with him are worthless.

Israel lives daily with the threat of Arafat's goons. Maybe if they stop blowing up buses and restaurants the Israelis will stop sending in their tanks...

Cheers,
JND

[1stFlight]

Originally posted by jnd3
Arafat is not a negotiator.

How many of the bomb-laden lunatics have ties to Arafat's Fatah party, or are in some other way directly linked to him? Something like 75% or more? Probably more like 95%.

Remember, Arafat won the Nobel Peace Prize in 1994. Since then he's worked tirelessly for peace. :rolleyes:

Either way, Arafat is irrelevant. If he CAN control the explosive-strapped fanatics and WON'T, then he's not the type of guy with whom one negotiates. If he CAN'T control the destruction-wielding nutjobs, then he's impotent, and negotiations with him are worthless.

Israel lives daily with the threat of Arafat's goons. Maybe if they stop blowing up buses and restaurants the Israelis will stop sending in their tanks...

Cheers,
JND


And if they all stopped tomorrow, would Israel cease expanding over Palestinian lands. No, they wouldn't. Israel creates their own problems, stop blaming others for them. You people act like the Palestinians are just blood thirsty killers without bothering to ask yourselves why. Stop being media forcefed cattle and read the history behind the conflict, it'll change your minds.

[AshG]

If this thread goes any lower, it will be closed and edited.

Regardless of how wach of us feels on the situation, nobody has the right to insult, demean, or berate another person to get that point across. Free speech can only continue as long as there are people who use it responsibly and maturely.

To reiterate: Stick to facts. Say it nicely or not at all. The First Amendment is horribly misunderstood by a majority of the population.

Any questions?

[netviper13]

Arafat's an idiot, Sharon is a war hawk, Dubya's just plain dumb, the world isn't such a great place. Nobody is more at fault for anything than any other person. I do believe, though, that Arafat hasn't done enough to bring an end to the violence.

I find it interesting that all of a sudden world leaders assume they have the power to bring a 2000+ year struggle to an end with a little piece of paper with a signature or two on it.

ibGoodEnuf, while I do agree that Israel is not a Nazi regime I would hardly call him an 'antisemite' for calling it one. I also feel that no land specifically belongs to any group(s) of people.

[jnd3]

Originally posted by 1stFlight
Stop being media forcefed cattle and read the history behind the conflict, it'll change your minds.
Do you mean, perhaps, the history of how Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza after Egypt and Jordan launched a war with them (and were soundly trounced)? Or perhaps the history of how Arafat et al rejected a peace deal in the late '90s? Or maybe the history of vitriol from the mosques in the region calling for an end to the Israel as a nation (and Jews in general)?

Or maybe you had different history in mind?

I have no beef with the Palestinian people in general. My problem is with Arafat (and Fatah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad) and the rest of the loonies who think that human bombs are the solution to any and all problems.

And I'm sorry, but I see very little that's pro-Israel in either the American or the European media.

Cheers,
JND

[1stFlight]

Originally posted by jnd3
Do you mean, perhaps, the history of how Israel annexed the West Bank and Gaza after Egypt and Jordan launched a war with them (and were soundly trounced)? Or perhaps the history of how Arafat et al rejected a peace deal in the late '90s? Or maybe the history of vitriol from the mosques in the region calling for an end to the Israel as a nation (and Jews in general)?


Further back actually, how was Israel formed? And as for that war (called the 6 day war). I've said this several times. Israel's put a bit of a spin on that "start" since they freely admit they destroyed the whole of the (correction) Egyptian AF while it was still on the ground. I've never seen an AF attack anyone on while in park. You? Now the Peace Deal, that I'll give you, that was a bad call on Arafats part. And calling for an end ot Israel, see what they've done and how. it'd be hard not to call for an end to them if you lived through thier occupation. I'm sure back in the 1800's Indians called for an end to us too.

Or maybe you had different history in mind?

nope, just go further back to the root of the problem instead of just the symptoms.

I have no beef with the Palestinian people in general. My problem is with Arafat (and Fatah and Hamas and Islamic Jihad) and the rest of the loonies who think that human bombs are the solution to any and all problems.

Actually they haven't and they don't. Everyone leaves out the dozens of times Arafat has approaced the UN for assistance, for international mediators, and lastly the US for assistance. And been rebuked time and time again. WIth the U.S. sitting on the Secuirty council we've time and time again, denied them an avenue for justice, and with everyone feeling so sympathetic towards the jews after WW2, they've pretty much let them get away with murder. The suicide bobming didn't start until 1994, Israel's been a thorn since 1947.

And I'm sorry, but I see very little that's pro-Israel in either the American or the European media.

Check again, granted the longer this conflict bears out the more even the reporting becomes. Which is good, Israel has gone too long with out the notice of it crimes.

Cheers,
JND


I feel it's important to note that I didn't start out believing in divesting, but once I started reading about how Israel v2 came to be,Sharon's speaking of a "Great Victory" at the deaths of 9 children over 100 wounded by one of our F-16's and a 1 ton bomb dropped on a building, and the 2 billion a year of my tax money that goes into the place. I could help but feel soiled at it. There is no difference from Palestinian terrorism and Israeli terrorism. Except we fund the Israeli version.

[LORD-eX-Bu]

1stFlight is a biggot, and probably was never in Israel. Can someone please close this thread before it gets any more disguting. I mean, I almost puked when I read your response to ibGoodenuf's post. You are anti-simetic, there is no doubting that, do what you want, but don't go spreading your message of hatred towards one ethnic and religious group around here. That being said, can someone please close this thread.

[Juntari]

Arafat could have accepted whatever was put on table in Camp David, but he broke off. Both Palestinians and Israelites differ on the particulars of what would have been a potential deal (especially referring to the amount of the land that the Palestinians would be entitled to, or to paraphrase).

Arafat has proven that he is not a skilled negotiator, but a skilled tactitian whose stay in power attests to his ability to manipulate and survive through the tribulations that his people go through. There are substantial info on the Palestinian authority dealing with Iraq and Iran and the weapons articles being smuggled in.

It is difficult when people see black and white in the issue and tend to take sides. I mean, both sides are to a degree corrupt and resort to very vain and violent measures. No one high up is willing to let up or contemplate any alternatives, and people have shed blood for them to push for political agendas to make them remain in power. Both Sharon and Arafat are culpable in this light.

The situation in Mid East in my opinion is a deadlock, and it is not going to be resolved FOREVER. I am very pessimistic about this, but I would think that people in that region would agree that status quo in this sporadic wanton violence is better than an outright war. Let the violence continue, and until it finally gets to you, enjoy your lives. I think that is what people in the region more or less accepted, they are accustomed to this horrific deeds of violence, and life goes on.

But I feel Palestinians are definitely worse off than Israelites, and all they need an equal footing in prosperity to see there is no need for violence, etc. All the terror rhetoric is aimed squarely at impoverished people who see Israel as the root of all their problems. And Arafat is bound to agree, despite it is his duty to actively help with those problems.

I saw this one documentry about a Paletinian town where Israeli soldiers have taken root. Palestinians are very bitter, but they do what Israeli soldiers tell them to, they coexist together. One day there is a march of some sort having Israelites prance about the Palestinian town, with an effigy of a Palestinian amongst them. They cavort about right in front of the Palestianians, cursing them and uttering phrases like 'Thanks goodness for our soldiers who protect us, let us bless them' I guess that's an annual event and that's why the soldiers are there in the first place. All Palestinians could do is to watch grimly. Then soon after there is a snowfall and Palestinian kids start throwing snowballs, not rocks, at Israeli soldiers who also join in the action. Some Palestinian kid tells his mom that he's just had a snowball bout with the soldiers, to the chagrin of his mom who chastises him to be wary of them, that they are dangerous, etc. The kid seems happily reserved, though, just muttering 'no...no'.

What do I think of this? That Israelites and Palestinians are human beings, that they can coexist together and that this struggle is inherited.