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View Full Version : My take on the graphics engine...


jAkUp
08-03-04, 10:27 AM
Anyone else think that they just threw in the Ultra Quality mode just because the hardware now is just faster than they expected? I mean, there really is hardly ANY difference between Ultra and High quality mode. I have looked and I canno't find one to be better than the other at all. I mean, hell, they automatically throw on 8xAF for High quality! I would have prefered higher textures...

I really do not know why they threw in the ultra quality mode, there is really no reason to disable all lighting compression. I think id realized that we are now in a generation with cards that doom3 was never intended for, so, rather than redo all the textures, and some visuals to delay the game another year... they just allowed an option to disable all compression. That throws the texture memory through the roof, which really is not necessary.

I feel that higher resolutin textures, in combination with low texture compression would have been a much better combination. It would be capable on cards today, and give much better visuals.

Don't get me wrong, the game looks very close to a CG movie. But if we had had higher texture resolution on the players armor, a few walls, it would like damn seem like a CG movie.

Other than that the gamplay is great, and I'm loving every second of it. :nanahump:

Kamel
08-03-04, 10:40 AM
i totally agree... texture compression has no effect on the actual quality of the image IMO. looking at the game with bumpmapping turned off, i think they could have made them higher resolution. the lighting is damn nice though, can't deny that -- but as far as the textures go, i do not think they did as good of a job as i'd hoped (ok, not even close in some situations...)

also i feel every game kindof goes after the wrong thing; they look at lighting, textures, bumpmapping, etc to make it look pretty... i really think they should start working on making the poly count higher -- it's going up, but it seems to be something they care less about -- as if they think out loud "oh, that's a sitty looking block.. just slap some high res textures on it and a bump map it will look great"; i guess the method is accurate, and more efficiant, but i'd rather have great geometry and bad textures.

Ninjaman09
08-03-04, 02:19 PM
The entire point of advanced lighting, specular highlights, and bumpmaps is to keep the polycount and texture size LOWER while achieving the same, or in cases such as Doom 3, better visual fidelity. The Doom 3 level architecture has very high polygon counts, and while it's true some of the character models do not, the extra polygons are not at all necessary to achieve the same visual effect. To complain about this is to truly nit-pick to the point of lunacy. Texture size is the same story - in a game like Doom 3 where you're always on the move, 1 or 2 stray low res textures don't take away from the experience unless you stop, take screenshots, analyze them, compare them to Far Cry, and start crying about it on a message board. Oh well, have fun whining. I'm gonna go have a blast playing the best FPS in recent memory.

JumboJack
08-03-04, 02:50 PM
I agree jakup, I pretty dissappointed in the texture quality.

Intel17
08-03-04, 03:04 PM
Same here Jakup, but afterall if you want eyecandy, play farCry. if you want a truly immersive experience, play Doom3 :)

CaptNKILL
08-03-04, 03:44 PM
I agree on the texture situation too (though i dont have the game yet :D)

but dont worry about it, someone will make an add on too increase texture resolutions. I wouldnt be surprised if it was the same guy that did the ones for Deus Ex: Invisible War and Thief: Deadly Shadows. He seems to have lots of experience doing bumpmapped high resolution textures, so id love to see a patch for D3 done by him. And the way id software is with the community, they would probably help to promote the texture pack to improve the experience of the game. Id love to run it at high quality with some high res textures attached... screw Ultra Quality :p

Sazar
08-03-04, 03:47 PM
I'm pretty disappointed overall with the game tbh...

however the lighting is one of the best i have seen... the flashlight is an essential part of the game and really adds a little extra...

the shotgun has thus far been my weapon of choice and the weapon models are rather well rendered (particularly in the dark)

I am still looking for bump-mapping effects to wow me but thus far its been a little underwhelming in that respect...

if you actually drop quality to Medium or Low you will see very little difference from Ultra and High... was running some tests in conjunction with the admin of my site (he has a 6800GT) and the differences are minimal and more to do with sharpness in a coupla areas... particularly shadows and text on displays...

on the whole its not too bad a game I spose.. I am just really really underwhelmed @ the moment...

this is basically playing Half Life in darker environments and w/o the big outdoor areas...

btw those looking to avoid tearing... try this out...

r_swapinternal 1

it made the image a lot smoother on my setup and tearing (that which existed) disappeared...

to pull down console its ctrl+alt+` (tilde)

Kamel
08-03-04, 04:40 PM
The Doom 3 level architecture has very high polygon counts, and while it's true some of the character models do not, the extra polygons are not at all necessary to achieve the same visual effect. To complain about this is to truly nit-pick to the point of lunacy.

which would you rather do, jack off or have sex? 'nuff said.

edit: to clarify, some things i look very good with bumpmapping, and i really think it is an effective way to increase visual fidelity without too much of a performance hit. the problem i have is bump mapping everything in site... when i look at doom3 screenshots, i think i'm looking at a room covered in cirran wrap. the tiles on the floor look excellent with it, and flat surfaces to look textured like the tops of tables and counters look excellent, or even the skin of things such as that nasty looking worm thing; but to go nuts with bumpmapping is really quite ugly and more or less the easy way out. how many cardboard boxes you see in d3 that actually look like they are cardboard? lol. how many things you see that are metal and have a true metallic lustre? they have a true plastic looking lustre -- it's a neat effect, and used properly i think it is very effective. to go over the edge though is different. this makes an already fake looking 3d environment look much more unrealistic.

Kamel
08-03-04, 04:44 PM
btw those looking to avoid tearing... try this out...

r_swapinternal 1

it made the image a lot smoother on my setup and tearing (that which existed) disappeared...

to pull down console its ctrl+alt+` (tilde)

the only thing this does is enables vsync.

OWA
08-03-04, 04:55 PM
I think the heat-effect is very cool and makes the game worth the price of admission. :)

Skrot
08-03-04, 06:25 PM
The graphics engine is.. wow! How can you whinge about the textures and say that the engine sucks? They aren't the same thing... You could have an engine that can render a scene that looks exactly like real life, but then have a level that is a box with 10x10 texture on the wall, bugger all polygons (12?), one light, and someone would say "man this engine sucks!"

Meh. To me this game is by far the best looking game I've ever seen. It seems to me that all those pretty effects in games like farcry (e.g. the water) could be simply added to the Doom3 engine (or maybe just the level design? think about the refractivity of glass in Doom3 as it is now... incredible :)).

Razor1
08-03-04, 06:32 PM
The graphics engine is.. wow! How can you whinge about the textures and say that the engine sucks? They aren't the same thing... You could have an engine that can render a scene that looks exactly like real life, but then have a level that is a box with 10x10 texture on the wall, bugger all polygons (12?), one light, and someone would say "man this engine sucks!"

Meh. To me this game is by far the best looking game I've ever seen. It seems to me that all those pretty effects in games like farcry (e.g. the water) could be simply added to the Doom3 engine (or maybe just the level design? think about the refractivity of glass in Doom3 as it is now... incredible :)).

Water could be just added but trees and the large outdoor areas can't be ;). Far Cry's artists aren't as good as Doom 3's. Thats probably the only reason Doom 3 looks better the Far Cry, oh that and its dark so playing with the colors is a bit easier.

Kamel
08-03-04, 06:36 PM
his statement was that his take on the engine is the devs of doom3 didn't have the cards of today in mind when they designed it, therefore making an ultra quality mode that just didn't compress textures at all in order to kill the top end systems (as any major game like this would like to do). my replies were stating that i agreed... they should increase the texture resolution instead of loading the textures uncompressed.

the texture resolution has little or nothing to do with the engine, they could easily make a game that uses the d3 engine and high quality textures etc.

Edge
08-03-04, 06:51 PM
The engine itself is amazing, but since it was originally being targeted for a 64-meg GF3 card, all of thier art assets were built assuming that they couldn't go much over that for textures. Obviously, now that we have 256 meg cards, they have over 4 times as much texture space as they originally planned (didn't one interview say that Doom 3 would use less than 100 megs of textures total?). Going back and redoing all those textures, not to mention the amount of space those would take up on the discs, would've made the entire process rather difficult. Personally, I'm very impressed by the engine: it's amazing how good it runs on "low-end" hardware, and even more impressive is the fact that there's very little visual difference between the high-quality and low-quality settings for the game. But yes, the "high" and "ultra-high" settings are a bit misleading: more like "mostly uncompressed" and "uncompressed", since they have minimal impact on the actual quality.

Still, this is pretty damn impressive that they managed to make a game that runs on GF3 cards and looks almost as good as the Unreal Engine 3 tech demo in some ways (note I say SOME). But just think how scaleable this engine is for the future: if this is how good the game looks using under 100 megs of textures, think of how it will look with over double that (especially considering many of the character textures and bumpmaps don't need any upgrades, just the backgrounds).

Bopple
08-03-04, 06:59 PM
Yeah, pretty much similar impression I got.
While Low-Quality mode is exceptionally good for the name, Ultra-Quality mode is dissappointing.

And with plastic-like surface, I don't think this engine can target normal(not dark) FPS games.

Anyway, this is an excellent game. :clap:

Kamel
08-03-04, 07:16 PM
And with plastic-like surface, I don't think this engine can target normal(not dark) FPS games.

lol, that's just because the devs of doom3 went bumpmapping nuts. if they were to apply good looking bumpmaps not everything would look plastic (and would actually look quite sharp).

proof of concept: ctrl+alt+` and type com_skipbump 1 -- plastic is gone! :D

Skrot
08-03-04, 07:17 PM
And with plastic-like surface, I don't think this engine can target normal(not dark) FPS games.Hm... in one area where the lights suddenly got really bright (can't remember why they did that), the game actually looked really good. I don't see how the engine can't be used for non-dark FPS games...

Bopple
08-03-04, 07:34 PM
lol, that's just because the devs of doom3 went bumpmapping nuts. if they were to apply good looking bumpmaps not everything would look plastic (and would actually look quite sharp).
To my eyes, it does not look metallic but plastic, when it comes to metal stuffs. As a layman, I am not sure if it's just the game or the engine. Does it have to do with bumpmapping?

Hm... in one area where the lights suddenly got really bright (can't remember why they did that), the game actually looked really good. I don't see how the engine can't be used for non-dark FPS games...
Well...imo, Far Cry outdoors looks better. But as Doom3 game is using low quality texture, I cannot be sure. I'll wait and see games made of this engine.

All in all, the graphics is not 'whoa!' for me. I will wait and see if HL2 can deliver that.

Kamel
08-03-04, 07:42 PM
To my eyes, it does not look metallic but plastic, when it comes to metal stuffs. As a layman, I am not sure if it's just the game or the engine. Does it have to do with bumpmapping?

that's exactly what i said.. i guess i didn't explain well enough. the plastic look is due to the horrible bump maps that they used. these bumpmaps look good on certain things like tile and countertops, but anything metallic doesn't look metallic, it looks plastic. not the fault of the engine but the actual bumpmaps themselves.

not sure if you're familiar with a bump map, but it's basically a second (mostly transparent) texture to coat the first one, when it's rendered the black places on the bump map appears to be raised, causing it to look bumpy. this is pretty-much an illusion, but it works well and is very good performance wise.

if you would like to see exactly what bumpmapping is and how it effects doom3 (causing it to look plastic coated), just go into the console by hitting ctrl+alt+` and typing com_skipbump 1 -- then turn it back on by typing com_skipbump 0 . this will probably explain what bumpmapping is and how it changes the game better than any website or person could tell you.

Bopple
08-03-04, 07:45 PM
Nods. I got it. Thanks. (though the command is not working...unknown command?)

faraday
08-03-04, 08:12 PM
To my eyes, it does not look metallic but plastic, when it comes to metal stuffs. As a layman, I am not sure if it's just the game or the engine. Does it have to do with bumpmapping?


Well...imo, Far Cry outdoors looks better. But as Doom3 game is using low quality texture, I cannot be sure. I'll wait and see games made of this engine.

All in all, the graphics is not 'whoa!' for me. I will wait and see if HL2 can deliver that.

I'm betting in half life 2, but not in the graphics department.

mind you i think it'll also be good, but the gameplay and story... :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling:

me wants...

evilchris
08-03-04, 08:54 PM
I'm betting in half life 2, but not in the graphics department.

mind you i think it'll also be good, but the gameplay and story... :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling:

me wants...

I remember dying for DX 2 ( DX: IW ), and a steamy turd was delivered. Half Life was good, but HL 2 could be a total POS.

Kamel
08-03-04, 09:44 PM
I'm betting in half life 2, but not in the graphics department.

mind you i think it'll also be good, but the gameplay and story... :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling: :drooling:

me wants...

maybe you should be browsing the hack lie 2 forums then.

Kamel
08-03-04, 09:50 PM
Nods. I got it. Thanks. (though the command is not working...unknown command?)

sorry, my head isn't on strait -- r_skipbump 1 is the proper command.