View Full Version : R520 with SM3.0
r2d2d3d4d5
08-25-04, 03:57 PM
Despite earlier reports that ATI will never produce an SM3.0 part (going directly for an SM4.0 part) The Inquirer (http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=18086) are now reporting that the R520 (apparently due some time in 2005 (1Q ?)) is expect to have SM3.0 functionality.
EMunEeE
08-25-04, 05:23 PM
LOL, I would hope that the R520 would have SM3 support.
mikechai
08-26-04, 12:33 AM
R520 will definitely support SM3.0 and possible some SM4.0 functionality too ...
superklye
08-26-04, 03:13 AM
Thank god my NV40 already supports SM3.0. :)
Surfer2374
08-26-04, 03:03 PM
With some sites speculating that the nv50 won't be out until late 2005 won't that mean Ati will have a leg up on Nvidia for almost a year. People projecting that r520 maybe out sometime around beginning of 2005.
superklye
08-26-04, 03:56 PM
I'm not too worried about SM4.0 considering 3.0 is used in what...1 and a half games right now?
With some sites speculating that the nv50 won't be out until late 2005 won't that mean Ati will have a leg up on Nvidia for almost a year.
no because the nv4x architecture has merely arrived and nvidia has not revealed all secrets which the architecture is able of. Upcoming revisions of the nv40 should have no problems filling the gap till the nv50 arrives late 2005.
This is the same as for the R3x0 architecture which ATI could use to remain competitive for almost 3 years. So there should be no problem at all for the nv4xs to remain on top for about 1.5 years even after the R520 is out.
EMunEeE
08-26-04, 08:24 PM
I'm not too worried about SM4.0 considering 3.0 is used in what...1 and a half games right now?
There is more to SM4 than what meets the eye though...*hint* redesigned shader architecture on the hardware level *hint*.
superklye
08-26-04, 10:55 PM
There is more to SM4 than what meets the eye though...*hint* redesigned shader architecture on the hardware level *hint*.
are you trying to hint at something?
fivefeet8
08-26-04, 11:26 PM
SM4 is like the step from Dx7 to Dx9.. Quite a lot more than SM2 to SM3..
superklye
08-27-04, 12:57 AM
SM4 is like the step from Dx7 to Dx9.. Quite a lot more than SM2 to SM3..
Yeah, but like the step from DX7 to DX9, until there are programs to utilize it, it's not really worth the hype or the investment.
fivefeet8
08-27-04, 04:55 AM
Yeah, but like the step from DX7 to DX9, until there are programs to utilize it, it's not really worth the hype or the investment.
How can developers make games to utilize it, if people don't buy Dx9 compliant video cards? There has to be some advancement. If everyone bought a DX7 video card instead of a Dx9 video card, would we even have DX9 games today? Investing in a SM3 card doesn't mean you won't be able to play SM2 games. You pay the same price for a SM2 only card.
I mean, what's more worth it? Investing in a SM2/b part that runs SM2 games excellently, or a SM2/b/3 part that runs SM2 games excellently?
I mean, what's more worth it? Investing in a SM2/b part that runs SM2 games excellently, or a SM2/b/3 part that runs SM2 games excellently?
If the market supplies SM3 games the SM3 capable card is the way to go. If there is no supply of SM3 games you just pcik the card which plays your SM2 games the best.
EMunEeE
08-27-04, 02:02 PM
are you trying to hint at something?
Yea hopefully, both companies incorporate the unified shader architecture into the DX and/or SM4 versions...
EDIT: I mean to say hopefully both companies will incorporate the unified shader architecture (where vertex and pixel shaders share the same silicon) into future designs based on the DX Next API.
fivefeet8
08-27-04, 02:57 PM
If there is no supply of SM3 games you just pcik the card which plays your SM2 games the best.
But which card plays SM2 games the best? They seem to be fairly even in most Dx9 games considering both the 6800gt and 6800u compares to their Ati counterparts.
superklye
08-27-04, 04:26 PM
How can developers make games to utilize it, if people don't buy Dx9 compliant video cards? There has to be some advancement. If everyone bought a DX7 video card instead of a Dx9 video card, would we even have DX9 games today? Investing in a SM3 card doesn't mean you won't be able to play SM2 games. You pay the same price for a SM2 only card.
I mean, what's more worth it? Investing in a SM2/b part that runs SM2 games excellently, or a SM2/b/3 part that runs SM2 games excellently?
Okay, you're comparing apples and oranges here dude. DX9 is a big thing, it's an entire development platform. SM3.0 are a feature and a feature that isn't really being used yet. So why not worry about SM3.0 before even thinking about 4.0? If 3.0 isn't being used yet, I'm pretty sure 4.0 is even further off. This shouldn't be a huge selling point for a card because it is rather insubstantial. If they were boasting complex DirectXNext support, then yes, that would incredible. But as it stands...so what?
coldpower27
08-31-04, 02:54 PM
R520 can't support Shader Model 4.0 in its's entirety, though DirectX 10 isn't due out till sometime in 2006 with the releases of Windows Longhorn
I would sat the R520 is due out in the middle of 2005, that's about the right time frame it usually takesabout 1 yr before the intorduction of completely new architecture.6 months for first of the new technology, then another 6 months for the revision/tweaked and enhanced slightly version.
The difference for Shader Model 4.0 is a major revision in Shader Model functionality and affects, it's like the jump from DX7 to DX8.0 with Shader Model 1.1, or the jump from Direct X 8.0 to Direct X 9.0 Shader Model 2.0
We are now ready for a new enhancement in Shader Model level.
Judging by this:
Pixel Shader 1.1 and Vertex Shader 1.1 New Technology.
Pixel Shader 1.4 and Vertex Shader 1.1 Revision and Enhancement
Shader Model 2.0 New Technology.
Shader Model 3.0 Revision and Enhancement
So Shader Model 4.0 is gonna be a new technology with the unified shader capable hardware which is gonna be much more effective thanks to the fact the shader unit can do either Pixel or Vertex Shading instead of being fixed to do one or the other. DUnno what it's gonna bring though, It's a very far off technology,, probably gonna be supported in full by R6xx and NV6x.
fivefeet8
08-31-04, 03:35 PM
Okay, you're comparing apples and oranges here dude. DX9 is a big thing, it's an entire development platform. SM3.0 are a feature and a feature that isn't really being used yet. So why not worry about SM3.0 before even thinking about 4.0? If 3.0 isn't being used yet, I'm pretty sure 4.0 is even further off. This shouldn't be a huge selling point for a card because it is rather insubstantial. If they were boasting complex DirectXNext support, then yes, that would incredible. But as it stands...so what?
Funny, you failed to mention that when you stated:
Yeah, but like the step from DX7 to DX9, until there are programs to utilize it, it's not really worth the hype or the investment.
Like I said, it's a feature right now that will be used in the coming months. It may not be used much in the short term, but who knows what will happen in 6 months from now. Both the x800 and 6800 cards perform exceptionally in SM2 games that we have right now. Even if SM3 isn't used for a long time, these cards can still play SM2 games for that given time. Having SM3 doesn't limit you to SM3 games and there is no investment in SM3, because both cards costs the same with or without it. Now if the SM3 part actually cost more than the SM2 part, then yeah, you'd be investing in it. But as it stands, both are priced the same. Both are very powerful SM2 cards. SM3 is something extra that may or may not reek benefits in the short or long run, but you don't lose anything with it either way.
superklye
09-01-04, 06:25 PM
Like I said, it's a feature right now that will be used in the coming months. It may not be used much in the short term, but who knows what will happen in 6 months from now. Both the x800 and 6800 cards perform exceptionally in SM2 games that we have right now. Even if SM3 isn't used for a long time, these cards can still play SM2 games for that given time. Having SM3 doesn't limit you to SM3 games and there is no investment in SM3, because both cards costs the same with or without it. Now if the SM3 part actually cost more than the SM2 part, then yeah, you'd be investing in it. But as it stands, both are priced the same. Both are very powerful SM2 cards. SM3 is something extra that may or may not reek benefits in the short or long run, but you don't lose anything with it either way.
I'm not talking about SM3 and SM2. I'm talking about SM3 and how there are basically no games using it now and they are already talking about SM4.
Why bother with the 2005 Corvette model, let's just get right to the 2010 one? Right? It's the same thing. DX9 isn't a feature, it's a PLATFORM that has many nice features in it. SM3 is a feature and nothing more.
Well the R300 supported DX9 a while before that even came out so i don't see why not.
superklye
09-01-04, 09:40 PM
Look forget it. It's not worth arguing about. It supports SM4. Great. Topic closed.
fivefeet8
09-02-04, 02:04 AM
I'm not talking about SM3 and SM2. I'm talking about SM3 and how there are basically no games using it now and they are already talking about SM4.
Why bother with the 2005 Corvette model, let's just get right to the 2010 one? Right? It's the same thing. DX9 isn't a feature, it's a PLATFORM that has many nice features in it. SM3 is a feature and nothing more.
Technology always advances and we have to decide whether we wan't it or not. After SM4, of course there's gonna be SM5. SM3 is a feature, but it's also a standard that everyone seems to be getting sooner or later. Just like the Dx standards. It is of course part of that standard.
SM4 isn't coming out any time soon. Until then, SM3 is going to be here whether you like it or not. Far Cry already uses it and we already know games are in the works for it. Even ATi is supposedly having a SM3 card soon.
Lfctony
09-02-04, 05:43 AM
If the market supplies SM3 games the SM3 capable card is the way to go. If there is no supply of SM3 games you just pcik the card which plays your SM2 games the best.
Even if the difference in SM2 games is minimal? Give up SM3 support for 5% extra perormance?
Sm4.0 will be released somewhere late 2006/2007 ... so there is not a chance ATI will have a single Sm4.0 feature..early 2005. not because it can;t be possible but because its not practical .. Sm4.0 is not about eyecandy features but about a more elegant way for the hardware -software interactivity with each other. thats the unified pixel /vertex shaders purpose. so in the best case ATi R520 will be a Sm3.0+ hardware..that is Sm3.0 features with some extra funtionality. just like the ->NV40 which support SM3.0 plus+ extra funtionality like + Fp64 blending/filtering. the lifespan of Sm2.0b will be instanly killed by ATi once ATI release a SM3.0 hardware. because developers will focus only in the standars SM2.0/3.0 and maybe SM1.0 for the few games that still will support it.
the biggest jump was Sm3.0 .. IMHO because it has no limits in the pixel shaders/vertex shaders and also developers can finally program their effects just like they do it with C++ in their games using conditionals and branching ..plus VS3.0 allows a whole new neat effects that were not possible before.but it also can be said that Sm2.0 also was. (because of the limitations in sm1.0) whatever.. but the next big jump in technology will not happen until SM5.0? .. when realtime GLobal illumination lighting/and NUrbs will be used for games intead. and this is indeed a reallly BIG jump.. probably as big as the one from 2d to 3d 3drendering. :)
here is a Microsoft GDC2004 slide about their expected Roadmap-timeframe for the next DIrectx's.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=7709&stc=1
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