NVIDIA to stop GeForce4 Ti 4600 production?

[Lezmaka]

x-bit labs has a story about nvidia stopping production of the Ti4600. http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/story.html?id=1036345903

If it's true, does that mean we should get some pretty overclockable Ti4200's (even more than usual) since anything that may have been a Ti4600 will become a 4200?

[thcdru2k]

the cores have always been very overclockable across the board for ti's. it all depends on the memory.

[sbp]

http://www.anandtech.com/showdoc.html?i=1741&p=4

Shifting gears a bit, there's a lot brewing at NVIDIA these days. Unfortunately timing for NV30 doesn't seem to be working out as perfectly as once hoped. Although there may be something to show off later this year, NVIDIA is telling their partners that chips will be available early next year. The whole situation is very much like the GeForce3 launch where we'll see a technology release at the end of the year but with actual product shipping in the 1st quarter of next year.

In order to shift focus away from the delayed NV30, there is an increasing amount of attention being given to NV28 - the AGP 8X version of the current GeForce4 (NV25). NVIDIA has already released the GeForce4 Ti 4200-8X, which is nothing more than an AGP 8X version of the Ti 4200. As you can expect, the performance of the AGP 8X offering is virtually identical to the AGP 4X cards give or take one or two percent.

For a while NVIDIA had been planning releasing a GeForce4 Ti 4600-8X similar to the Ti 4200-8X that I just mentioned. However, just very recently the Ti 4600-8X has been scrapped (or should I say renamed) and now roadmaps show two new GeForce4s to debut before the end of the year.

For starters we have the GeForce 4 Ti 4800, but don't let the name excite you - the card is nothing more than a GeForce4 Ti 4600 with AGP 8X support. Even more disappointing is that there's talk of a GeForce4 Ti 4800-SE that runs at the same clock speed as the current-gen Ti 4400 but with AGP 8X support.

[Uttar]

Sounds like they're more interested in creating new products.

That's a quite good idea actually; the Ti4800 yields will likely be VERY good since the 0.15 process is getting old. So selling it at a lower price point to compete with ATI seems possible while keeping good gross margins.

And launching new products means they sell them to companies like Gainward and stuff immediatly. Which, in turn, enables nVidia to keep acceptable financial results maybe?


Uttar

[Joe DeFuria]

Sounds to me like NV30 will be later than initially thought, and nVidia has no choice but to try and compete with ATI's new products (also on 0.15 and getting good yields, btw) with re-hashed old crap. ;)

This is just nVidia trying to minimize the damage any way they can. I don't see all that much demand for a Ti-4800 compared to the 9500 / 9500 Pro....unless they sell the 4800 at MSRP $149....

[Uttar]

Originally posted by Joe DeFuria
Sounds to me like NV30 will be later than initially thought, and nVidia has no choice but to try and compete with ATI's new products (also on 0.15 and getting good yields, btw) with re-hashed old crap. ;)

This is just nVidia trying to minimize the damage any way they can. I don't see all that much demand for a Ti-4800 compared to the 9500 / 9500 Pro....unless they sell the 4800 at MSRP $149....

First of all, I think that a recent rumor saying that only nVidia's main partners ( MSI, for example ) will get NV30s in 2002 is true. It make sense because nVidia will have very few NV30s in 2002.

Also, i think you're really not being very objective about the Ti4800 there.

Here are ATI's MSRPs:
Radeon 9700 Pro: $399
Radeon 9700: $299
Radeon 9500 Pro: $199
Radeon 9500: $179

When nVidia will have NV28s on the market, i'm betting they'll put that Aniso optimization ( which you can already enable via RivaTuner ) directly in their drivers. That way, they could suggest that NV28 performance is significantly better than NV25 performance ( which, of course, isn't true if you used the same drivers. But that's nVidia's company policy, they always did that )

With that Aniso optimization, Aniso performance will not be a problem when compared to ATI's cards.

If you read Anand's Radeon 9500 Pro preview, performance is pretty much on par with the GeForce 4 Ti4400. So, with that Aniso fix, the GeForce4 Ti-4800-SE will likely cost MORE than the Radeon 9500 Pro, and the GeForce4 Ti-4200 with AGP8X just a little more.

So, here's my speculation on nVidia's NV28 MSRPs:

GeForce4 Ti4200 with AGP8X: $189
GeForce4 Ti4800-SE: $209
GeForce4 Ti4800: $229

That makes a lot of sense, IMO. Sure, the GeForce4 Ti4800 can't compete with the Radeon 9700, but the Radeon 9700's MSRP is $299, or $70 more.


Uttar

[jbirney]

Uttar,

keep in mind anyone that (p)review a 9500pro did not have a pro. They took an 9700pro and hacked it down. Also the memory config is not the same. End result we dont really know where the 9500 pro will be at. Then factor in Toms and HardOCP (p)reviews of the Pro. In those two (p)reviews they showed that the 9500 pro was ahead of the GF4 at some things. Then turning on AF/AA and it pulled even farther. So now we have reviews that dont match wich clouds the issue of the 9500 pro prefromace even more.

Even if the ATI/GF4 prices are close and their perfromace is close which could happen, then still the ATI cards could be a bit more of a better buy. Why? Features. I know having a frist gen DX9 card is usless. But still someone may buy one and just may hold the card long enough that when a DX9 game comes out they can use it. Also the 9500+ cards have a better AA. Their AF? well hard to say. It still has issues so I would give that to the GF4 except that even with the Aniso tweaks its still slower than ATI. So the feature check list (again probably worthless) is in ATIs favor.

Like I said before I am happy that we have a sift in the dominate player of gfx for awhile. That will make nV fight even harder to get back to the #1 postion and thus you and I will get better products. Plus we will have more to debate about :) See win - win :)

[Joe DeFuria]

So, here's my speculation on nVidia's NV28 MSRPs:

GeForce4 Ti4200 with AGP8X: $189
GeForce4 Ti4800-SE: $209
GeForce4 Ti4800: $229

That makes a lot of sense, IMO.

Not IMO. ;)

By all accounts, the 9500 Pro is the superior product to the current GeForce4 Ti 4400. It basically matches (non Aniso / AA) or exceeds its performance (Aniso / AA). It also has DX9 support. And we can debate the usefulness of DX9 support on cards of this performance level (we'd probably agree anyway!), but all else being equal, would you not opt for the card that has such support? At least you'll get to run some cool tech demos. ;)

So I don't see it as making sense for a AGP 8X Ti 4400 to have a higher MSRP than the 9500 Pro.

Most seem to also completely forget about the 9500 non-pro. Sure, it's only got half the pipes, but in the high res / AA situations, the 9500 pro is surely bandwidth limited, not fill rate. (Otherwise, the 9500 Pro would perform the same as the 9700 non pro). And since the 9500 has the same bandwidth as the 9500 Pro, I think a lot of people are going to be surprised at how well the 9500 performs at high resolutions and with AA.

It will be the "low resolution" scores where we'll the the 9500 non-pro not fare to well. And who doesn't think that all of these cards aren't fast enough at low resolutions anyway?

[Uttar]

Originally posted by Joe DeFuria
Not IMO. ;)

By all accounts, the 9500 Pro is the superior product to the current GeForce4 Ti 4400. It basically matches (non Aniso / AA) or exceeds its performance (Aniso / AA). It also has DX9 support. And we can debate the usefulness of DX9 support on cards of this performance level (we'd probably agree anyway!), but all else being equal, would you not opt for the card that has such support? At least you'll get to run some cool tech demos. ;)

So I don't see it as making sense for a AGP 8X Ti 4400 to have a higher MSRP than the 9500 Pro.

Most seem to also completely forget about the 9500 non-pro. Sure, it's only got half the pipes, but in the high res / AA situations, the 9500 pro is surely bandwidth limited, not fill rate. (Otherwise, the 9500 Pro would perform the same as the 9700 non pro). And since the 9500 has the same bandwidth as the 9500 Pro, I think a lot of people are going to be surprised at how well the 9500 performs at high resolutions and with AA.

It will be the "low resolution" scores where we'll the the 9500 non-pro not fare to well. And who doesn't think that all of these cards aren't fast enough at low resolutions anyway?

Actually, the scores who'll get the biggest hit with the non-pro are the Aniso scores - Aniso eats fillrate.

Also, i said that those prices are only logical if nVidia expose the Aniso optimization directly in their driver panel.


Uttar

[Joe DeFuria]

Hmmm...

I thought Aniso ate bandwidth, not fill rate. (Aniso requires more texel reads and more complicated blending algorithms, but not filling of more pixels.)

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Joe DeFuria
Hmmm...

I thought Aniso ate bandwidth, not fill rate. (Aniso requires more texel reads and more complicated blending algorithms, but not filling of more pixels.)

nope, MSAA eats bandwidth, AF eats fillrate

[sebazve]

well actually both eat lots of power (bandwith and fill rate)

:D

[Juntari]

One thing I can guess at is that NV30 is not going to be released in consumer variety well into the next year, that void is going to be complemented with TI4800 and TI4800-SE. However, NVidia should market their new cards very competitively against the likes of 9500 Pro. It is certain that NV30 will not going to make the cut in the way of mass yield this year and NVidia just should claim the performance crown and let the old vanguards of GF4 to become attractive sales. Given the choice of Ti4800 or 9500PRO I would have a hard time deciding between the two (assuming that Ti4800 is cheaper), whereas there's no contest between Ti4600 and 9500PRO.

[StealthHawk]

we haven't seen either card yet(9500(Pro) or Ti4800) so it would really be hard to choose between the too :D

i suppose we'll see if new drivers can help the GF4 at all or if it's a lost cause.

[jbirney]

Keep in mind that from andtech the 4800 does not offer anything new. Were as the 9500(pro) at least gives you DX9 compatibility. Again no clear idea if having DX9 will make any difference other than letting you run some cool DX9 tech demos and the next 3dmark :)

[StealthHawk]

personally i think buying solely for features is something of a mistake, but it would really depend on how long you use your card.

the reason i bought a GF3 over a GF2Ultra for example, was not because of DX8 features, but because it played games faster in 32bit and had faster FSAA. i didn't even know what AF was until after i had the card for a month or so. just an added bonus i guess :p

[Juntari]

I agree, I am just very anxious. I would love to see NV30 this year...but I would not be able to afford it. So TI4800 should be something different. If it is just TI4600 with 8x AGP, which could be obvious from the way Ti4200 was updated, I would not know if that's the right decision. Why the new packaging or the hassle, just spend more resource on NV30 already...maybe that name refresh is something important in marketing sense, or the marketing guys were just going nuts with nothing to do.

I don't know if the new DX9 games would take advantage of the initially released cards that are DX9 compatible.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Juntari
Why the new packaging or the hassle, just spend more resource on NV30 already...maybe that name refresh is something important in marketing sense, or the marketing guys were just going nuts with nothing to do.

because NV30 would have been out this year in very limited quantities if it came out this year. according to the CEO, NV30 won't even be out this year at all.

[jbirney]

The TI4800 & TI4800SE are not really anything to get excited about just adding AGPx8 is almost worthless for todays and some of tomorrows games. Its a stop gap as there is no nV30 in sight.

[ASCI Blue]

The one Ti4200 8x on the market today is ~212 iirc, it was an MSI and only for sale at one place I found using www.pricewatch.com as it is there are still ti4200's over $200.