San Francisco tells homeless to stick it

[sbp]

SAN FRANCISCO -- Fed up with growing hordes of homeless people begging and sleeping on their streets, cities across the country have begun taking desperate new steps to restrict their behavior, or to run them out of town.

Here in this capital of compassion, public fatigue with the panhandlers besieging the city has become so intense that voters sound ready to approve a ballot measure next week that would nearly wipe out the generous monthly welfare payments that San Francisco has long provided to thousands of homeless men and women.

Local business leaders also are waging an extraordinary new campaign to shame San Francisco officials into solving the homelessness problem by blanketing billboards and taxi stops around the city with ads that feature residents holding ragged cardboard signs that say, "I want to walk a block without getting hassled for money," or "I don't want to hold my breath past every alley."

The same exasperation is evident nationwide. In Philadelphia, officials just launched an advertising campaign urging downtown workers and tourists not to give spare change to panhandlers. In Orlando, the city council recently voted to jail people caught lying or sitting on downtown sidewalks. Authorities in New Orleans have gone to the point of removing all the benches in historic Jackson Square to stop the homeless from sleeping there.

much more here: http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A38043-2002Oct29.html

http://www.lemonizer.com/uploads/homeless.jpg

[Kruno]

I swear this is from Ultima 9, homeless getting driven out of town. This looks more like a bloody joke than something serious.

[DaveW]

John Major tried that in London once. It didn't go down too well, I wish it had. I don't like being hassled in the street for money either.

[Matthyahuw]

Maybe this will get them off their collective asses and get a damn job :mad:

[outriding9800]

Originally posted by Matthyahuw
Maybe this will get them off their collective asses and get a damn job :mad:

Oh nice one...

do you realize that most of the homeless people are mentaly challenged and can't even hold down a job ? and to make matters worse the U.S. turns their backs and mentaly challenged people.

Matthyahuw i know you are a religous person what does the bible say about giving a helping hand to the needy ?? I am not a biblical scholar but i would think it would say you would need to help them.

What i think is really ironic is the sign does not state on how much of the 200 million was spent on "administration" you would be suprised on the percentage is spent doing paperwork and the car the women is driving it looks like she has some to give.

on a side note i saw a homeless person walking the streets the other day saying his name was pelly. .... j/k i hope he can find a job soon.

[DaveW]

do you realize that most of the homeless people are mentaly challenged and can't even hold down a job ?

No they aren't. There is an abnormally large proportion of mentally challenged people who are homeless, but that's not the same as them making up the majority of homeless people. Most homeless people are capable but just lazy. There are such things as unemployment benefits, food stamps, disability benefits, bankruptcy protection, homeless shelters, United Way, the Salvation Army etc. etc. Nobody needs to sleep in a box and beg for food. Some beggers are actually well off from taking other peoples money, there is one in the UK who owns a Porsche.

[saturnotaku]

Originally posted by sbp
Here in this capital of compassion, public fatigue with the panhandlers besieging the city has become so intense that voters sound ready to approve a ballot measure next week that would nearly wipe out the generous monthly welfare payments that San Francisco has long provided to thousands of homeless men and women.


I hope they pass it, too and give the money back to the taxpayers who have been funding welfare all along.

You're not going to make homelessness go away, but if it's becoming such a problem that there's people on every corner, harassing folks, etc, then something has to be done.

[Matthyahuw]

Originally posted by outriding9800
Matthyahuw i know you are a religous person what does the bible say about giving a helping hand to the needy ?? I am not a biblical scholar but i would think it would say you would need to help them. Ya sure, help em out, I don't mind, I volunteer some of my time (not as much as some, but I do...). What's better, to give someone a handout to go get som liquor, or help them out so they can get a job and feed themselves?
You also cannot help someone who doesn't want help. Also, the studies have shown that the mentally challenged homeless population is 5-20% depending on the area...
Since you brought up religion, God doesn't help anyone that doesn't at least TRY to help themselves, and we should do the same for the homeless, it's called tough love, you love em enough to say YOU'RE LAZY! And we're tired of giving you free food from our tax money, now get up and get a job, and be a productive member of society!

[Smokey]

Why is it so easy for most people to just lay blame on the homeless and call them alcoholics and the likes? Have you ever slept on the streets? Have you ever been without money to buy a meal etc? I have, do you honestly believe that the homeless are taking taxpayers money in welfare? Fact, if your homeless you cannot recieve welfare. To recieve any for of welfare you have to be living somewhere a pernemant address. Yes it is true that in London people do make a living from begging on the streets and im sure this happens in other countries also, but you will find in most of these cases these are not real homeless people and also more than likely recieve benifets. The "real" homeless are the ones you see at 3am sleeping in shop door ways, park benches etc, looking through bins (trash 4 u US ppl ;) ) living a life like that doesnt make you feel happy, alot will turn to alcohol, they may even be why they are on the streets. Fact is, all governments dont do nearly enough for homeless people regardless of what they tell you, why? Becasue the true homeless people see nothing of what the government say they are spending. Who helps the homeless the most? Volenteers, in London for example, people going around in vans, giving out hot soup, tea and coffee. I dont know how much tax you pay in the US, but when I was in the UK I paid 20% income tax plus about 4% N.I (medical insurance stuff) plus everyone pays 17.5% sales tax on almost everything. Is it too much? Some people might say yes...I say no! As long as I am working and I have quite a good life, buy the things I want, go out when I want etc I am happy. Try living on the streets then you might understand what it means to be homeless. Dont be so judgemental, because of what the government tells you, or the media, or the people begging for money on the streets. Live for a couple of weeks during winter with some homless people then pass judgement, but not before.

[Kruno]

How do you know if they have not tried to help themselves?


Originally posted by Matthyahuw
Ya sure, help em out, I don't mind, I volunteer some of my time (not as much as some, but I do...). What's better, to give someone a handout to go get som liquor, or help them out so they can get a job and feed themselves?
You also cannot help someone who doesn't want help. Also, the studies have shown that the mentally challenged homeless population is 5-20% depending on the area...
Since you brought up religion, God doesn't help anyone that doesn't at least TRY to help themselves, and we should do the same for the homeless, it's called tough love, you love em enough to say YOU'RE LAZY! And we're tired of giving you free food from our tax money, now get up and get a job, and be a productive member of society!

[fishlung]

Smokey, yeah, it's not a pretty sight. And there isn't a simple solution. Last time I was in San Francisco, I stayed in a hotel near a homeless mission. A lot of those people were malnourished, crazy and unstable. It was pretty depressing. You wish you could just help those people out somehow. If you think that it's easy for a homeless person to just go out and get a job, think again. To say that they're "capable but lazy" is just ignorant. It's a lot more complicated than that, and if you've had to live on the street, with no money, no home, and nobody there for you, it's not easy to just pick your life up and be a "productive member of society". I understand the feeling of those merchants and residents. It's not easy to deal with the presence of that many homeless people. But personally I find it more depressing than disgusting. I'm thankful for my health, my mental state, and that my life didn't take a turn for the worse.

[Kruno]

Society is a slave to $$$
I dislike it when people mock, tease others especially when they have never been in their shoes.

I'm lazy and have no job. Yet I have more than enough money to support myself.
Things in life are complicated.

[thcdru2k]

that sign is utter bs...it should say, why can't we help the homeless more? sickening we can waste billions on nasa and don't want to give any more to the homeless.

[ATI LoVeR 9700]

This thread is making me sick about some of the opinions on homelessness... Ugh...

From what I see here in Chicago, most of the homeless are mentally challanged or old Vietnam Vets that have gone nuts. A large part of homeless people are veterans. It's true. Don't generalize about people not all are drunks, or lazy!

I really don't want to get into a discussion about this and helping people out is the right thing to do, but so you guys know, volunteer as much time as I can at my church to help out, and donate alot of stuff to charities.

I'd love to see how you guys would feel if you were homeless and all of a sudden financial support wasn't there...

[Matthyahuw]

I've been laid-off, had my car repossesed, had my mortgage foreclosed on, and ya know, what? If you are not lazy, you bounce back...paralized vets can do telemarketing, some mentally challenged people can do remidial labor, etc, handouts just prolong the time they are homeless. And ya know what? I STILL dontate old clothes and toys at least twice a year, even while I had no job, I've also donated 2 cars (not junkers), and some small appliances. It's basic "give the man a fish, feed him for a day, teach a man to fish, feed him for a lifetime" deal...

Now, before y'all go wacko, YES, there are SOME exeptions, like the severely mentally hampered...unless you fit into that category (2% of the homeless), you should be out there working...and I don't have issues with my money going to them either...

[thcdru2k]

sometimes its not a matter of being lazy, but luck. i hear lots of stories of people getting in car accidents and though they looking physically fine, they have some kind of ailment and long lasting that prevents them from being able to work.

[Nephilim]

Originally posted by Smokey
Why is it so easy for most people to just lay blame on the homeless and call them alcoholics and the likes? Have you ever slept on the streets? Have you ever been without money to buy a meal etc? I have, do you honestly believe that the homeless are taking taxpayers money in welfare? Fact, if your homeless you cannot recieve welfare. To recieve any for of welfare you have to be living somewhere a pernemant address. Yes it is true that in London people do make a living from begging on the streets and im sure this happens in other countries also, but you will find in most of these cases these are not real homeless people and also more than likely recieve benifets. The "real" homeless are the ones you see at 3am sleeping in shop door ways, park benches etc, looking through bins (trash 4 u US ppl ;) ) living a life like that doesnt make you feel happy, alot will turn to alcohol, they may even be why they are on the streets. Fact is, all governments dont do nearly enough for homeless people regardless of what they tell you, why? Becasue the true homeless people see nothing of what the government say they are spending. Who helps the homeless the most? Volenteers, in London for example, people going around in vans, giving out hot soup, tea and coffee. I dont know how much tax you pay in the US, but when I was in the UK I paid 20% income tax plus about 4% N.I (medical insurance stuff) plus everyone pays 17.5% sales tax on almost everything. Is it too much? Some people might say yes...I say no! As long as I am working and I have quite a good life, buy the things I want, go out when I want etc I am happy. Try living on the streets then you might understand what it means to be homeless. Dont be so judgemental, because of what the government tells you, or the media, or the people begging for money on the streets. Live for a couple of weeks during winter with some homless people then pass judgement, but not before.


I have been homeless, thank you very much. I've slept on park benches and on top of office buildings, or any where else I could lay my head and not get robbed, killed, or arrested. I've dug through rubbish bins to find something to eat. I've fought off heroin addiction. I watched my dearest friend kill himself in front of me and there was nothing I could do to stop him. Sometimes I still see it in my head when I go to sleep at night.

You know what? I'm not homeless now. I have a good job and an education. I haven't touched drugs in nearly 10 years (aside from cigarettes and the occational drink..oh and Mt. Dew ;) ).

After all of that, I DO think some of these homeless need a good kick in the pants.

[PsychoSy]

Before I go completely batcrap (and - fair warning - I'm going to completely LOSE IT as its taking everything I got not to go completely ballistic with this post right off the bat), I want to post something that is very meaningful to me on a personal level...

Hold a lamplight to the night,
See the empty streets rolling out of sight,
Turn a deaf ear to the din,
Ignore the hunger pangs...
Bundle up against the wind...
Still I believe...someone waits for me...

A place to call my own,
Somewhere to be from,
A shelter from the storm,
Where I'll be safe and warm,
A future built in stone...
A place to call my own...

And once there was a time,
I had no fear at all - none that I recall...
No future there to taunt,
No history to haunt me,
No monsters in the walls...
Still I believe...someone waits for me...

A place to call my own,
Somewhere to be from,
A shelter from the storm,
Where I'll be safe and warm,
Of wood, and bricks, and stone...
A place to call my own...

These words were written Ted Nugent for a personal friend of his whom we we all know and heard of. This person is a true spiritual Christian - in deed and in spirit. During the mid 1990s, this friend of Nugent was flat broke, homeless, on the virge of divorce, and had nowhere to go for many months.

His name...?

TOMMY SHAW!!

That's right!
The same "Styx" Tommy Shaw.
The same "Damn Yankees" Tommy Shaw.

And he remained homeless and broke until around 1995 when his prayers of simply having a home were answered. He got word somehow of Styx wanting to re-record "Lady". What was intended to be a simple get together turned into a full-fledged reunion with years of touring that is still going on today.

However, this doesn't change the fact that he was bumming the streets, begging for money to get something to eat for the day. He was so miserable that, he would actually pay someone else money - money that he bummed - just to tell him a joke.

Homeless people can't get a job for one specific reason - they are physically, emotionally, psychologically, and mentally bereft of the tools necessary to work. They've grown so despondant due to their cimstances that they literally feel absolutely helpless and powerless to change or improve their cimcumstances. Professional psychologists call this "learned helplessness" and its a severe mental problem close related to Post-traumatic Stress Disorder that requires a specific approach. Anyone that just says, "aw they're just lazy" don't even have a friggin' clue about trully understanding what cripples the mind - the psyche - and the spirit of these poor, homeless people and I wish these "aimchair psycologists" would do the world a favor if they would simply clam up until they either BECOME homeless themselves for once or educate themselves!!

Now comes the part where I just...well...you know me! I've been here long enough...anyway, it's quote time...

Maybe this will get them off their collective asses and get a damn job :mad:

Maybe THIS post of mine will make YOU get off YOUR collective ass and become educated on exactly what "learned helplessness" is. Getting a job won't help these people because their problem is psychological. Like the stressed out soldier on the battlefield whose neural system shuts down to the point where it can no longer take any input and process information resulting in an overload of the entire neural and central nervous system, "learned helplessness" is much the same. It's called "learned helplessness" because it can be unlearned with proper professional help. The victim "unlearns" everything they were taught, raised, believes, etc. because of thier circimstances (in the case of the homeless, their battlefield is the streets) and their consciousness convinces them that there is no hope - no alternative whatsoever for their predicament.

Some religious wingnuts might say, "Oh this is just the devil's work! The cure is to open The Bible and pray to Jesus and yada-yada-yada".

GET REAL!!

The extent of The Bible's coverage of "learned helplessness" lumps it all into one convenient category of "demon posession" because that's all a primitive 1st-century person could come up with as their understanding of the human mind in relation to the present time is terribly limited. Someone like Manson, Dahmer, or the Unibomber, had they lived in the 1st century, would've been labled "demon possessed" and executed immediately. Today, we at least try to understand these "loons" before we put them away or execute them because we may be able to actually educate ourselves and TREAT their condition instead of writing it off and BURYING it.

Since you brought up religion, God doesn't help anyone that doesn't at least TRY to help themselves...

&*%#?!&^!!! :mad: :p

By the Holy Spirit of God, Jesus, Joe Pesci, George Carlin, and anything and everything on this green earth, this logic is the BIGGEST crock of excremento de toro I've heard in the 30 years I've been dragging my knuckles through this side of the Mesopotamia!!!! I absolutely HATE this phrase with a passion and I...I...

...lead not into temptation...

Oh, I wish the person who coined it in the first place would...would....

...I said lead NOT into temptation...

Um...ahem...would just... be beaten repeatedly with a folding chair because it's brainless, meaningless, senseless, and contrary to popular belief, is NOT once ever said at all in The Bible - NOT EVER - Not at all in the English, Greek, Latin, Swahili or any possible translation I've ever bled my eyes over!! It's simply NOT there and never even eluded to.

You can even prove it to youself, folks! Go to any Bible search engine and type that phrase up. Your results will be NILL, OUGHT, VOID, ZERO!

If you don't feel like proving it to yourself, then allow me to disprove this "God only helps those who helps themselves" notion with clear, honest, direct, logic....

Ready? Good...listen...erm...read closely....

If you could help yourself........................... why would you ever require GOD's help?!?!?!?!?

Here's a better one...if we could help ourselves why in the world would God nail His Son to a big wooden stake?!?

That makes better sense, right? As far as I can tell, the exact opposite is true - God only helps those who can not help themselves. Why? Because of He wants praise and attention! People who can help themselves don't do that. Instead, they say, "Look at me, mofo!! I did it myself! I'm da MAN!!" and happy-dance like idiots.

I mean remove God from the equation alltogether and replace it with....Best Buy. If you knew exactly what you want before even setting foot into that Best Buy and knew exactly where to find it so that you could actually help yourself to the products you desire, do you actually need the help of the pimply faced reject in khakis and a blue sweater stalking you through out the store just so he can say, "May I help you?"

NO!

But it still happens! I can't even walk 10 feet in a Best Buy without being accosted at least a half-dozen times, man! Drives me insane! I once had one dude follow me through the CD/DVD section, over to the car stereo section, across the way to the PC games section, then over the laptop section. Every time I stopped to look or grab something, he'd stop about 15 feet behind me. By the time I reached the laptop section to snag some blank CDRs, he finally approaches me and says, "Are you finding everything OK, sir?"

"Yeah..."

"Well, if you need any help with something, let me know."

"Uh, I do. Here...hold these."

And I left!
I went to across the parking lot to Media Play!! :D :p
I don't get stalked in there.
In fact, most of the employees there emigrate to avoid me.
I don't know why - perhaps its the scowl on my face or the leather jacket.

I don't complain, though!

[netviper13]

Originally posted by PsychoSy


AMEN man! I was seriously considering writing a lengthy reply to this thread, but that pretty much summed up everything I was thinking of saying.

Going by the 'help those that help themselves' logic, nobody should have aided the Jews during WWII because they weren't trying their damndest to keep from being exterminated. (note: that's obviously meant to be satire). Good ole' 700-club logic for you.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by fishlung
A lot of those people were malnourished, crazy and unstable. It was pretty depressing. You wish you could just help those people out somehow. If you think that it's easy for a homeless person to just go out and get a job, think again. To say that they're "capable but lazy" is just ignorant. It's a lot more complicated than that, and if you've had to live on the street, with no money, no home, and nobody there for you, it's not easy to just pick your life up and be a "productive member of society".

and for many homeless people, there were choices made in the past that led them to their current situation. let's not forget that.

[thcdru2k]

woah woah...when did god enter this conversation..

[PsychoSy]

Don't blame me! I didn't bring God up.
God was brought up by outriding9800's post.

[netviper13]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
and for many homeless people, there were choices made in the past that led them to their current situation. let's not forget that.

A good majority of the homeless are mentally ill, it's a fact that's been proven, I can dig up cites and sources if you'd like. Mental illness is quite obviously something people don't have a choice in.

Are there people who are homeless because of stupid decisions? Yes. Do the deserve another chance? Yes.

[Nephilim]

This reply has nothing to do with the religious aspect of which this quote was taken...

"Since you brought up religion, God doesn't help anyone that doesn't at least TRY to help themselves...."

To which PsycoSy replied:

"If you could help yourself........................... why would you ever require GOD's help?!?!?!?!?

Here's a better one...if we could help ourselves why in the world would God nail His Son to a big wooden stake?!?"

To which I have to say:

There is a big difference between not helping yourself, and not trying to help yourself. Regardless of whether or not you actually accomplish it.

Which person would you rather give your hard earned cash to, the guy that reeks of Mad Dog 20/20 and pupils as wide as dinner plates asking for spare change, or the guy that asks you if you know where he might be able to find some work as well as the spare change?

As for your Best Buy analogy....I'm still trying to figure out where that came from.

I for one, would be more willing to give my support if I knew that the money was being spent on not soup kitchens, not welfare, nothing like that....but job placement services, therapy for those that need it, drug rehab, detox, whatever. Things like that to get them back into the swing of working for a living, holding down a job, and paying their own way.

Styx, Damn Yankees....some big name bands right there. I've never heard of Tommy Shaw because I am not a fan of those bands but, I'd be curious as to how he became homeless being a part of those acts that did fairly well. One might take into consideration the actions that got the person into being homeless.

Regardless, just as you cannot make stereotypes on a race/culture/class of people based on a few of the members, you cannot judge the entire population of the homeless based on experiences with one of them, much less a song about one.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by netviper13
A good majority of the homeless are mentally ill, it's a fact that's been proven, I can dig up cites and sources if you'd like. Mental illness is quite obviously something people don't have a choice in.

shouldn't they be in mental health hospitals or something then?

Are there people who are homeless because of stupid decisions? Yes. Do the deserve another chance? Yes.

the current programs aren't working. so either scrap them or refine them.