View Full Version : Flipping and Flopping - Both Kerry and Bush change positions, often
http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&ncid=1963&e=4&u=/ap/20040913/ap_on_el_pr/flipping_and_flopping
While working relentlessly to portray Democratic Sen. John Kerry (news - web sites) as a "flip-flopper," President Bush (news - web sites) has his own history of changing his position, from reversals on steel tariffs and "nation-building" to reasons for invading Iraq (news - web sites).
Most recently, Bush did an about-face on whether the proposed new director of national intelligence should have full budget-making powers as the bipartisan Sept. 11 commission recommended. Bush at first indicated no, then last week said yes.
Just as GOP efforts to question Kerry's military record in Vietnam helped revive nagging questions about Bush's service in the Air National Guard, the "flip flop" attacks on Kerry could boomerang against an incumbent running on his record and reputation as a straight talker.
"The guy who is the ultimate flip and flop is this sitting president," said Democratic Sen. Joseph Biden (news, bio, voting record) of Delaware.
Yet so far Democratic efforts to paint Bush as "Flip-Flopper-in-Chief," as one Democratic news release put it, have not seemed to have had much impact on the race.
Republicans have been driving home their depiction of Kerry as a flip-flopper for months, in campaign ads, speeches and interviews. And polls suggest this line of attack is working.
Far more voters give Bush high marks for being decisive than they do Kerry. Three-fourths, 75 percent, in the latest Associated Press-Ipsos poll said the president is decisive, up 7 percentage points from August, while 37 percent said Kerry is decisive, down 7 percentage points from a month ago.
I think we should all vote for mcCain via write-ins :D
/me plans to write in mc Cain...
Saint Lucifer
09-13-04, 12:02 PM
I'm voting for Leonard Peltier of the Peace and Freedom Party!
Even though that party's presidential candidate was convicted of first degree murder for for killing two FBI agents and is sentenced to two consecutive life terms in a federal prison.
An acquaintance of mine met John McCain when he did an internship in D.C. ... he said that he (McCain) had a serious "cold dead fish" handshake ... is that the kind of guy we want to be leader of the free world? :p
everytime i have seen him shake hands on television its been a firm politicians shake...
/me shrugs...
any man who can survive the POW camps is strong enough to be president :D
Saint Lucifer
09-13-04, 01:11 PM
An acquaintance of mine met John McCain when he did an internship in D.C. ... he said that he (McCain) had a serious "cold dead fish" handshake ... is that the kind of guy we want to be leader of the free world? :pCould that possibly be a well veiled reference to "King of the Hill" ?
Rakeesh
09-13-04, 03:22 PM
Flipping and Flopping - Both Kerry and Bush change positions, often
Wait...what?
http://www.georgewbush.com/kerrymediacenter/read.aspx?ID=2439
That kerry flip flop list is extremely long. How long is george bush's list then?
Wait...what?
http://www.georgewbush.com/kerrymediacenter/read.aspx?ID=2439
That kerry flip flop list is extremely long. How long is george bush's list then?
its pretty long :)
and it more directly impacts the american people than anything kerry has done...
the list you quote, while long, is selective and generally out of context in many situations...
Rakeesh
09-13-04, 03:25 PM
its pretty long :)
Got a link?
Got a link?
the link @ the top of the thread points directly to some of his more obvious and in context flip-flops...
Rakeesh
09-13-04, 05:15 PM
the link @ the top of the thread points directly to some of his more obvious and in context flip-flops...
Most of those were the result of a rapidly changing situation, and the first one specifically is part of a plan that isn't even fully developed yet, of course there are going to be changes. This article makes a poor case actually.
Last month, he said he doubted the war on terror could be won, then reversed himself to say it could and would.
That wasn't a flip flop, that was a speech taken out of context.
A week after the Sept. 11, 2001, attacks, Bush said he wanted Osama bin Laden (news - web sites) "dead or alive." But he told reporters six months later, "I truly am not that concerned about him." He did not mention bin Laden in his hour-long convention acceptance speech.
Yes, bush does want osama dead or alive, but currently there are bigger fish to fry. No flip flop there.
"I'm a war president," Bush told NBC's "Meet the Press" on Feb. 8. But in a July 20 speech in Iowa, he said: "Nobody wants to be the war president. I want to be the peace president."
That is bush stating what he is, and then stating what he wants to be. Hardly a flip flop. I don't see anybody counting Kerry as flip flopping by saying "I am a senator" then saying "I want to be president".
I've only seen about two items in that article that can be considered flip flopping. Yet Kerry has plenty more.
Most of those were the result of a rapidly changing situation, and the first one specifically is part of a plan that isn't even fully developed yet, of course there are going to be changes. This article makes a poor case actually.
the articles case is borne out by the comments of the person...
That wasn't a flip flop, that was a speech taken out of context.
yes... I am sure it was... but not many make that assertion about kerry :) heck no one said anything when zell miller used the basic republican doctrine bout what kerry voted for and against while conveniently disregarding the stance everyone else took @ the time (including cheney and bush sr) and also kerry's pro military record for most of his career...
Yes, bush does want osama dead or alive, but currently there are bigger fish to fry. No flip flop there.
bush made a promise to the victims and the relatives and friends of those victims of 9/11... osama was priority 1...
I don't disagree that there are bigger fish in the sea and more issues... I think the problem is what bush said then and the nonchalance with which he dismissed osama during the interview...
That is bush stating what he is, and then stating what he wants to be. Hardly a flip flop. I don't see anybody counting Kerry as flip flopping by saying "I am a senator" then saying "I want to be president".
I've only seen about two items in that article that can be considered flip flopping. Yet Kerry has plenty more.
you are entitled to your opinion...
pretty much everything kerry has said that can supposedly be construed as flip-flopping is selective out of context quoting... ie the most famous one... he voted for the $87 billion before he voted against it... or the one where he supported the war in iraq v/s opposing it...
does kerry flip-flop? hell yah... no denying it... but the republican's political PR peeps have made it seem like thats all he ever does and they have been hammering it into the american peoples psyche from day 1... the flip flop instigation came out the day kerry won the primaries...
kerry has (unfortunately for him) not attacked bush for bush's flip-flops... thats his problem... if you read the comments bush has made since 2000 (pre-election) through till today you will see a variety of changes in his position... typical of a politician...
suffice to say both of them do it... naturally we are all biased one way or another as to who said what when and what they meant by it and does it more often... :cool:
Son Goku
09-13-04, 10:04 PM
I think we should all vote for mcCain via write-ins :D
/me plans to write in mc Cain...
If a write-in campaign could actually be worked/organized, and even more so without the major candidates knowing, it would be sweet.
The problem is, the realist in me says that either a Democrat or a Republican will be the next president; and the populace organizing in such a manner would be highly unusual to unlikely...
Even during the time of the American Revolution, it wasn't the majority that revolted/organized against British rule, or helped establish this nation. It was rather the minority, and among the planners fell upon the Free Masons, who at the time were organized and took steps to the founding of this nation.
BTW, till this election, I never voted for a mainstream Democrat or Republican for president, and that is even with me saying this. Would be nice though, if the people could organize without the leaders, especially for the message it would send to career politicians :D though I don't expect to see such happen in my lifetime...
vBulletin® v3.7.1, Copyright ©2000-2012, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.