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Vapor Trail
09-14-04, 08:55 AM
I just got my copy of Madden 2005 for the PC and I see on the box that the requirements are a DX9.0b video card. No mention of DX9.0c or SM3.0 anywhere on the box or in the manual.

Does anyone know for sure if Madden 2005 will support SM 3.0 at all????

Maybe a patch later???


Must say I'm a bit disappointed right now. :(

Ludic
09-14-04, 09:01 AM
I wouldn't expect it to. EA is going to sell a ton of copies of Madden 2K5 regardless if it has SM 3.0 or not, so I think they wouldn't bother.

DivotMaker
09-14-04, 09:02 AM
I just got my copy of Madden 2005 for the PC and I see on the box that the requirements are a DX9.0b video card. No mention of DX9.0c or SM3.0 anywhere on the box or in the manual.

Does anyone know for sure if Madden 2005 will support SM 3.0 at all????

Maybe a patch later???
:(

Nope. If you remember, nVidia recently had to pull the SM 3.0 marketing info regarding several games including Madden 2005 and Tiger Woods 2005.

Could these games be patched later with SM 3.0? Could be, but I have heard nothing about either game being patched since they are both just getting released.

Vapor Trail
09-14-04, 09:59 AM
Nope. If you remember, nVidia recently had to pull the SM 3.0 marketing info regarding several games including Madden 2005 and Tiger Woods 2005.

Could these games be patched later with SM 3.0? Could be, but I have heard nothing about either game being patched since they are both just getting released.


Yeah, I remember that but I was hoping the originial marketing information was correct. Looks like SM3.0 is still more hype than substance so far.

DivotMaker
09-14-04, 10:13 AM
Yeah, I remember that but I was hoping the originial marketing information was correct. Looks like SM3.0 is still more hype than substance so far.

My sources (EA developers) tell me that nVidia was premature in announcing support for SM 3.0 in these titles when there was no guarantee that SP2 and/or DX 9.0C would be widel available to the public when the games were released. Since SP2/DX9.0c were released too late in the development cycle to implement properly, the feature did not make into final code.

SM 3.0 will get here, just not as quickly as many of us would like. I am hoping to see patches on both games that support SM 3.0, but I am not holding my breath.

Pandora's Box
09-14-04, 10:44 AM
i havent played any of the madden series but i do have a question: do these games really need sm3.0? i mean its just football right?

DivotMaker
09-14-04, 11:11 AM
i havent played any of the madden series but i do have a question: do these games really need sm3.0? i mean its just football right?

Good question....

I suspect that TW 2005 could benefit from SM 3.0 as it renders a great deal of 3D trees, grass, and animated water using pixel and vertex shaders.

saturnotaku
09-14-04, 11:14 AM
I suspect that TW 2005 could benefit from SM 3.0 as it renders a great deal of 3D trees, grass, and animated water using pixel and vertex shaders.

It should be really awesome when it comes out, even without SM 3.0. I'm definitely looking forward to getting it.

And when are you guys going to add Medinah No. 3 to the TW repertoire? :p

jbirney
09-14-04, 12:12 PM
You also have to look at it from the Developers stand point. To them what benefit will it be for them to add SM3.0? Remember it will take some time for the developers to add it, test it and ensure its does not break anything. Now this could be only a few days to a couple of weeks. For developers time is money so would it be in their best interest to spend their time on an SM3 patch vrs working on bugs, expansion back, next gen? Does the patch add any visuals over their current version? How many users can benefit from this patch? Granted while SM3 is a great thing there are some hard questions that developers while have to weigh...


TBH Adding SM3.0 (and PS2.0b) to Farcry was the worse idea I have heard in a long time. It adds no visible gain. The cards it does help were already runing Farcry at playable frame rates. And its scope was limited to only new 6800 cards wich as kick butt as they are, are a very small part of the overall marketshare. Why risk breaking things with a SM3.0 that gives you so less in return? Now I would encourage them to add it to the Farcry engine. But I feel they would have been much better off to forget SM3.0 and PS2.0a/b, release the patch to fix bugs and just get one with the next Farcry game.

And I am not trying to download play SM3.0. SM3.0 is great and the way of the future. But I am just trying to think about it from a practical standpoint.

DivotMaker
09-14-04, 12:25 PM
It should be really awesome when it comes out, even without SM 3.0. I'm definitely looking forward to getting it.

And when are you guys going to add Medinah No. 3 to the TW repertoire? :p

I am still under NDA, but I can tell you that it looks far more immersive to me than 2004 did. As soon as NDA is lifted, I will try to explain why. The work that was done to tree rendering is simply unbelievable, IMHO.

As far as Medinah, I will ask EA about it.

DivotMaker
09-14-04, 12:26 PM
You also have to look at it from the Developers stand point. To them what benefit will it be for them to add SM3.0? Remember it will take some time for the developers to add it, test it and ensure its does not break anything. Now this could be only a few days to a couple of weeks. For developers time is money so would it be in their best interest to spend their time on an SM3 patch vrs working on bugs, expansion back, next gen? Does the patch add any visuals over their current version? How many users can benefit from this patch? Granted while SM3 is a great thing there are some hard questions that developers while have to way...

Excellent analogy!


And I am not trying to download play SM3.0. SM3.0 is great and the way of the future. But I am just trying to think about it from a practical standpoint.

Could not agree more....

Vapor Trail
09-14-04, 01:07 PM
i havent played any of the madden series but i do have a question: do these games really need sm3.0? i mean its just football right?


The same "why use SM3.0 argument" could be used for any game not just a sports game.


Lets see... uses for SM3.0 in Madden 2005 hmmmm.

Realistic rain and water puddles
multiple light sources for night games
instancing for thousands of realistic looking fans in the stands.
individual blades of grass rendered....

ok.. going a bit far there.

I guess my point is this was one of the first games slated to have SM3.0 and it doesn't. I'm sure it will be a great game without it, but I'm just disappointed it doesn't have it. :(

Oh well, can't wait to get home and play some football!

Cota
09-14-04, 02:01 PM
I think the feature that will benefit sports games is geometry instancing if used properly.

fivefeet8
09-14-04, 02:04 PM
TBH Adding SM3.0 (and PS2.0b) to Farcry was the worse idea I have heard in a long time. It adds no visible gain. The cards it does help were already runing Farcry at playable frame rates. And its scope was limited to only new 6800 cards wich as kick butt as they are, are a very small part of the overall marketshare. Why risk breaking things with a SM3.0 that gives you so less in return?


More performance is always good. The Far Cry 1.2 patch does help performance quite a bit in some situations on 6800 cards. The problem wasn't SM3 because it works fine on SM3 hardware. Well, atleast it does on mine. ;) It was mostly ATi hardware that was having problems with it. Probably from the early SM2b implementation and bugs that were left in the game itself.

I can see where a game like Madden 2005 could benefit from SM3, but we're going to have to wait for those other SM3 games.

Arioch
09-14-04, 02:05 PM
We're talking about Madden here, a game that comes out every year with minimal graphic enhancements from one year to the next. They sell enough of these games with our without any SM3.0 effects and we all know they make all their money off of the console versions anyway.

fivefeet8
09-14-04, 02:05 PM
I think the feature that will benefit sports games is geometry instancing if used properly.

And multiple light sources in one pass. ;) HDR FP16 filtering would be nice.

jbirney
09-14-04, 02:28 PM
I think the feature that will benefit sports games is geometry instancing if used properly.

How so for the crowd?

fivefeet8
09-14-04, 02:37 PM
How so for the crowd?

Fully 3d polygonal characters instead of 2d flat animated characters. Maybe.

jbirney
09-14-04, 02:43 PM
More performance is always good. The Far Cry 1.2 patch does help performance quite a bit in some situations on 6800 cards.

Oh I agree. But look at it from the developers point of view. If the perfromance was good enough to start with (which it was clearly on the 6800 as it was neck and neck with the 800's), then why spend the time and effort? What gain does it give Crytek? How much money will the make off it? What does Crytek get out of spending their time and effort on a game thats already shipping (remember if you have the game, then they have your money and will adding SM3 support in a patch get any more money out of you). Ahhh there is the magic key...Money. Now if they offered it as an part of their expasion pack...then they get $$$ reward for their efforts...


Now I know making a mod is not even in the same ball park. But here is a real world example. Say I want to change the damage on one of my weapons. Its a simple one line code change. But If I am going to do a good job then I need to test it to ensure that it works in my games types. Meaning if I made the change because gametype Y the weapon was too weak, does it make the weapon too powerfule in gametype X? So for me, I would then have to play the differnent game modes to ensure the weapon balance is just right. Thus for a simple one line change I may spend up to an hour testing to ensure I got it right (meaning, tweak damage, test, repeat as needed). Now apply this to something like your 3D rendering engine. Can you imagine the potentail for errors something this big could cause? Or time to ensure you tweaks did not break it on hardware ABC?


The problem wasn't SM3 because it works fine on SM3 hardware. Well, atleast it does on mine. ;) It was mostly ATi hardware that was having problems with it. Probably from the early SM2b implementation and bugs that were left in the game itself.

No your missing the point. Why even bother to add it at all on both hardware platforms? Again both hardware had very playable frame rates. Would you as the developer want to spend time on making your game a bit faster on only a small set of hardware, fix current bugs or work on the next game? Look at it from a revenue standpoint....

nVestor
09-14-04, 02:58 PM
Oh I agree. But look at it from the developers point of view. If the perfromance was good enough to start with (which it was clearly on the 6800 as it was neck and neck with the 800's), then why spend the time and effort? What gain does it give Crytek? How much money will the make off it? What does Crytek get out of spending their time and effort on a game thats already shipping (remember if you have the game, then they have your money and will adding SM3 support in a patch get any more money out of you).

I don't have FarCry myself yet, but I plan on getting a 6800 Ultra or GT soon enough. If this game doesn't ship with the videocard I get, I probly won't get it if there will not be a SM 3.0 patch. Not into single player games, rather play online with buds.

If the SM 3.0 patch does come out, I might check it out. If not, it just isn't worth it too me. :) Are they missing a market with me, or am I just being too stingy?

Madden 2005 sells itself without SM 3.0. It would be great if it had it too though. Then again, I have an XBoX... so I guess they got me buying it one way or another.. lol.

fivefeet8
09-14-04, 03:05 PM
No your missing the point. Why even bother to add it at all on both hardware platforms? Again both hardware had very playable frame rates. Would you as the developer want to spend time on making your game a bit faster on only a small set of hardware, fix current bugs or work on the next game? Look at it from a revenue standpoint....

I think the revenue they got from Ati and Nvidia to implement SM3/2b might have swayed them a little. Anyways, I think the patch actually fixed more bugs than it broke on nvidia cards. I can see you point from a developers standpoint, but we don't really know what went on with Crytek/Nvidia/ATi to really say for sure.

jbirney
09-14-04, 03:08 PM
I think the revenue they got from Ati and Nvidia to implement SM3/2b might have swayed them a little. Anyways, I think the patch actually fixed more bugs than it broke on nvidia cards. I can see you point from a developers standpoint, but we don't really know what went on with Crytek/Nvidia/ATi to really say for sure.

I completly agree this was nothing more than a PR stunts by both IHV with Crytek selling them selves. Then end result is no one really cares about Farcry anymore :)

saturnotaku
09-14-04, 03:08 PM
If the SM 3.0 patch does come out, I might check it out. If not, it just isn't worth it too me.

The SM 3.0 patch did come out, but it was pulled because of problems with a certain "other" company's hardware. You can probably still find mirrors to the file. There are a couple other things you need to do to get the path enabled. Search the forums here, there are instructions on what you need.

I didn't see any visual difference, but there was some performance improvement. So I think it's a promising start even if there isn't much support for SM 3.0 out of the gate.

jbirney
09-14-04, 03:11 PM
I don't have FarCry myself yet, but I plan on getting a 6800 Ultra or GT soon enough. If this game doesn't ship with the videocard I get, I probly won't get it if there will not be a SM 3.0 patch. Not into single player games, rather play online with buds.

If the SM 3.0 patch does come out, I might check it out. If not, it just isn't worth it too me. :) Are they missing a market with me, or am I just being too stingy?

TBH that makes little sense since the SM3.0 patch adds no visible IQ changes. In fact if you did not benchmark your card you would not know if it was using SM3 or not. Now the HRD effects and other IQ changes they have coming later would be a good reason. But I guess your doing what you think is right...and more power to ya!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

nVestor
09-14-04, 03:19 PM
The SM 3.0 patch did come out, but it was pulled because of problems with a certain "other" company's hardware. You can probably still find mirrors to the file. There are a couple other things you need to do to get the path enabled. Search the forums here, there are instructions on what you need.

I didn't see any visual difference, but there was some performance improvement. So I think it's a promising start even if there isn't much support for SM 3.0 out of the gate.

Thanks, I will keep that in mind. :thumbsup: