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View Full Version : How many new tricks can NVIDIA teach their NV2x?


tieros
11-07-02, 10:28 PM
Without making major modifications to the current chipset, what kind of enhancements could nVidia make to the 4600 to give it a speed boost without turning it back into a 400 dollar card?

Core clock speed? How much headroom do they have?

Memory? Widen the bus? Switch to DDR? DDR-II? QDR? ODR? :D

AGP 8X? I can already hear the snoring...

Drivers: NVidia's favorite speed boost :D


If they could boost the core clock and double the bandwidth, what kind of performance increase do you think they would see?

thcdru2k
11-07-02, 10:48 PM
technically they could increase the bandwidth, but it would be pointless with the nv30 coming out. drivers are the best bet.

tieros
11-07-02, 11:02 PM
I was thinking more along the lines of extending it's lifespan once it becomes the "value" segment as opposed to any near-term changes.

I'm not sure how much market there is today for a beefy 4600 with the NV30 on the (ever-changing) horizon.

thcdru2k
11-07-02, 11:05 PM
yeah, an beefed up 4600 would divert sales from the nv30. value will always be value. no where near the top performing cards because companies are in to make money.

ragejg
11-08-02, 08:32 AM
Those who are actively getting ready for an nv30 are more than likely getting it for its stellar AF/AA perf (as well as other features)... which (AA/AF) is something the 4600 genuinely lacks. So there's some initial consumer separation right there. Add to that the fact that the nv30 will positively drive nv2X prices down, kicking 4600/4800's down to 4200 territory...

...So, this new battlefield appears to have a gap in it... medium perf. AF/AA... something attractive to everyone, and attainable by an enhanced bandwidth nv2X OR a downclocked de-piped nv30.

Something to "one-up" the 9500...

I don't think a beefed up nv28 would divert purists and performance mongers, for they know what they're looking for.

I'm sure nvidia will make an interesting choice, given:

1. public feedback on their MX series chipsets. (good and bad)
2. their own announcements of changes of target market for the MX series. (no mention of gaming anymore)
3. ATI's decent dealings with the lower price segment vs. nvidia's mx chipset.
4. the aggressive sales of gf3's vs. any of nvidia's mx chipset... gamers wanted the DX8 feature bad...


...there must be an nv2X sitting around with an A4 core and "last generation" BGA DDR memory... probably clocked around 4600 levels but take-able to much higher speeds....



-r-a-g-e-j-g-

Chalnoth
11-08-02, 09:35 AM
Originally posted by tieros
I was thinking more along the lines of extending it's lifespan once it becomes the "value" segment as opposed to any near-term changes.

I'm not sure how much market there is today for a beefy 4600 with the NV30 on the (ever-changing) horizon.

I don't think we'll ever see an NV2x card placed in the value segment.

It's really looking like nVidia is going to be posititioning their NV31 there next year (possibly next Spring!), which would be absolutely excellent news for the market as a whole.

I really do hope that nVidia goes this route...they majorly screwed up by never releasing a low-end NV2x part. Not doing so has held back games by at least six months, if not more.

Cotita
11-08-02, 10:39 AM
nvidia has enough trouble trying to get the nv30 out as soon as possible to even think about releasing the nv31 (if such thing even exists)

We'll be lucky if we get a nv30 followup before 3Q 2003

Chalnoth
11-08-02, 11:15 AM
Problems with the initial release of a chip don't necessarily translate to problems with later releases.

You do know that nVidia has multiple engineering teams, right?

Cotita
11-08-02, 12:26 PM
I know nvidia has multiple engineering teams, but I think most of its efforts are geared toward the release of the nv30.

If the nv30 is half as good as its claimed to be, then nvidia will buy some time and won't need to release a new card till late next year.

I don't think nvidia will release a nv31 anytime soon, mainly because the geforce 4 is still selling very well and there is no rush to release a dx9 card when there are no dx9 games.

Nvidia just released the ti4200 8x and reportedly has shipped about a million units already.

the ti4800 is rumored to be released to cover the lack of nv30 for christmas.

The geforce4 still has a lot of life left, so the nv31 can patiently wait at least till mid 2003.

Chalnoth
11-08-02, 05:31 PM
It's all about OEM sales, particularly at the low-end.

And what you don't seem to realize at all is that games will NOT make good use of the new features until they are available at the low end.

And the GeForce4, though it is selling quite well, is not a low-cost solution.

ricercar
11-10-02, 12:26 AM
Originally posted by Chalnoth
It's all about OEM sales, particularly at the low-end

Exactly correct. High end parts such as the Ti4600 make up less than 10% of NVIDIA overall sales. IIRC NVIDIA's lucrative business is in the volume sales of non-enthusiast parts sold to OEMs like Dell, Toshiba, Sony, Medion AG, etc.

NVIDIA's current manufacturing still includes TNT2, (maybe GF2, I don't know) and GF4 ... but no GF3. People would rather buy a NV17 (GF4MX) over a NV20 (GF3). NVIDIA recently cancelled the Ti4400 and they have no plan for Ti4600 AGP8x parts, only Ti4200 and GF4 MX. These marketing choices say a lot about the key market targets and cash cows for NVIDIA this Christmas season: King of the middle-of-the-road.

NVIDIA has conceeded the higest ground to ATI this holiday season, but hasn't lost much except the spotlight and glitter, the mindshare if you will. Ignoring economic considerations that affect ATI and NVIDIA equally, if NVIDIA keeps their middle-of-the-road OEM accounts, NVIDIA won't see financial impact in terms of lost market share this Christmas.

Assuming NV30 comes out at Comdex and starts shipping before Jan 1--even in trivial amounts--NVIDIA has a good chance of complete recovery.

Chalnoth
11-10-02, 01:57 AM
Actually, the AGP8x Ti 4600 should be arriving soon. It is otherwise identical to the current Ti 4600.

And yes, I think that nVidia has shown through its excellent track record over the last few years that it has gained OEM support and confidence. It would take a rather prolonged deficiency on the part of nVidia for them to start to lose significant market share.

Something which isn't likely to happen given nVidia's financial situation (which still appears to be quite good).

StealthHawk
11-10-02, 07:25 AM
Originally posted by ricercar
NVIDIA recently cancelled the Ti4400 and they have no plan for Ti4600 AGP8x parts, only Ti4200 and GF4 MX. These marketing choices say a lot about the key market targets and cash cows for NVIDIA this Christmas season: King of the middle-of-the-road.

you must have missed Anand's blurb where he stated that not only would nvidia release a Ti4800(Ti4600 8x), but also a Ti4800SE(Ti4400 8x) in the near future, as a stop gap to solidify, *gasp*, the middle of the road. the GF4s are the middle of the road now ;)

ricercar
11-10-02, 06:07 PM
Er, I read that article, but I'll just say I heard differently from someone whom I trust more than Anandtech. We'll never see NV28 as Ti4600. What they call NV28 may be "Ti4800," but it's going to be clocked as a Ti4200-AGP8x.

As a likely NV28 owner, I'll be pleased as punch to be proven wrong when/if we see the Ti4800 moniker.

Chalnoth
11-10-02, 10:23 PM
No, the GeForce4 Ti 4200-8x and Ti 4800 are different products.

And btw, the GeForce4 Ti 4200's with 8x AGP are available now.

stncttr908
11-11-02, 07:00 AM
And the performance boost is next to nil. Its all about the marketing. AMD and NVIDIA are pulling the same gigs but at least the hardware backs it up.

Chalnoth
11-11-02, 10:43 AM
I think it's more about OEM deals, so that computer manufacturers can put, "128MB AGP8x graphics" on their PCs.

The release of the Ti 4800 is probably just due to nVidia not wanting to have two versions of their GF4 Ti chips.

vvolkman
11-11-02, 11:19 AM
Originally posted by stncttr908
And the performance boost is next to nil. Its all about the marketing. AMD and NVIDIA are pulling the same gigs but at least the hardware backs it up.

The benchmarks are pretty dull so far, heartily agreed. Anybody tried Code Creatures on TI4200-8X yet??

False Christian
11-11-02, 11:20 AM
nVidia must realize that people who want and buy their videocards aren't stupid and, thus, aren't gonna be fooled by an AGP 8x Ti4x00 or MX4x0.

If NV30 is delayed to much they can always release a board with 2 GeForce4-Ti4x00's using 3dfx's programmable SLI technology which they bought.

ReDeeMeR
11-11-02, 11:37 AM
I've red somewhere that this new Ti4800 is infact Gf4Ti4200 with higher clocks and agp8x and SE has lower clocks and memory. That's explains the price below 200 for 4800SE

saturnotaku
11-11-02, 02:26 PM
I also read that it looks like NVIDIA will be announcing the mobile counterpart to the NV28. I'd most definitely like to see a comparison between it and the ATI Mobility 9000.

Of course, I'd much rather see a mobile NV30 but I don't think that's gonna happen for at least another year.