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View Full Version : How thin is thin? (nv silencer 5, urgent)


Schumi4ever
10-01-04, 05:55 AM
Ive just installed the nv silencer 5 in my xfx geforce 6800gt using the provided thermal paste on the gpu and memory. But before I got an idle temp of 50, now its 62:eek:

But it was also the very first time I used thermal paste etc, so I want to know how thin thin is.

The instructions said to put a thin layer on the gpu. When using the provided thermal paste, does that mean the entire gpu should be white, or is thin even thinner then that, and should it actually be slightly transparent?

And incase the amount of thermal paste isnt wrong, what else could cause this high temp? Ive screwed the nuts fairly thight, the washers are being compressed a little and I can see no light coming through.

Load temp btw also increased from 80 before, to atleast 90 (that was after 1 second of rthdribl, I immediatly closed it.)

BioHazZarD
10-01-04, 06:07 AM
I think you put to much, its just gotta be as thin as possible no bubbles sticking up so just smooth it out, i use a credit card.

Schumi4ever
10-01-04, 06:14 AM
So basically I got to remove the heatsink. Does that mean Im gonna have to clean all the ram aswell again and then reapply thermal paste? Or can I just leave that?

At first I put some thermal paste on my gpu, but I found it not too easy the spread it over the core (I used some plastic over my finger). So after some messing around (without making a mess ;)) I had it pretty much covered, but it still was reasonably transparent. Therefore I decided to put a very little bit more on it (but I still believe it was fairly thin).

So should I have left it the way it was the first time? (it also wasnt completely evenly spread, therfore some transparency, and thats why I put a little bit more on it.)

Perhaps someone can reccomend a more easier way to apply a nice, thin even layer of thermal paste? :)

And how, if, should I clean the heatsink? Just with soms smooth toilerpaper? :angel2:

saturnotaku
10-01-04, 06:32 AM
You applied the thermal paste completely incorrectly. Go to www.arcticsilver.com and follow the instructions on that site. They're plain as day with detailed pictures. To clean off old paste, use Q-Tips and pure alcohol (minimum 91%) which you can buy at your local drug store.

Schumi4ever
10-01-04, 07:25 AM
When I removed it the first time when idle temp was 60, I saw nice prints on the heatsink for the memory, but only half a print for the gpu. I then cleaned everything and applied a new layer, slightly thinner on the gpu but idle temp was now 65! Took the heatsink off again and again nice prints of the memory on the heatsink, but hardly of the gpu! I then screwed the heatsink as tight as I could get it, and now idle temp is 63-64. So Im going to put an ever thicker layer on it right now, and look how big the print of the core is right now, because apparently theres a bad contact :(

Slammin
10-01-04, 07:40 AM
I read in another thread here how someone shaved down the copper pads that cool the ram, which in turn lowers the HSF so that it makes contact with the gpu core. It seems that the ram chips must have some kind of mfg deviation and sometimes they are mounted lower on the circuit board, and sometimes they are raised a little. I suspect this is why the stock cooler uses those soft thermal pads.

On my NV5, I could actually see a little bit of light between the copper and the core, so what I did was lay the artic silver on really thick! Works great. Idle temps went from 65c to 57c and max temp seems to be somewhere around 77c. Maybe one of these days when I'm feeling really industrious I will sand down the ram pads on the NV5.

Marcos
10-01-04, 07:44 AM
when I put down paste, I put a glob down about the size of a nerd candy, and snap a q-tip in half, then spread it out by dabbing it along the core, it always works well for me.

Schumi4ever
10-01-04, 07:46 AM
Whoohoo:D

After I had used a pretty thin layer and tighten the screws as tight as I could, there was hardly a print at all of the core on the hsf. I then decided to thicken the layer, again tighten the nuts as much as I could, and no idle temp is 48. Sure its only 2 degrees lower then with the default hsf but I now have less noise, lower gpu temp and lower ambient temp (down by 5-6, although the case is now widely open)

Thanks for your help, but apperantly one should use a fairly thick layer off paste with the nv silencer :rolleyes:

Next thing is of course find oud the load temp :)

Schumi4ever
10-01-04, 08:35 AM
After some 40 minutes of rthdribl the temp was 73, that at least 7 degrees lower then before, although its still with my case wide open.

mustrum
10-01-04, 08:54 AM
The new generations of the silencers (ATI ones as well) need quite a lot thermal paste. The "as thin as possibler" rule or the "you need to be able to read the markings" rule don't apply here. If you do that you get no contact as you experienced it. The problem is producing a HS with 9 different points of contact. They seem to be unable to make it 100% even.
I used a lot AS5 on my ATI silencer 4 and it's 34 idle and 58 load. (was 45 idle 84 load before)

Eltigre88
10-02-04, 10:25 AM
:lol2: Application Instructions for Premium Silver Thermal Compound
Arctic Silver, Arctic Silver II, Arctic Silver 3 and Arctic Silver 5.


Important Precautions
Don't put it in your mouth. .
Don't give it to children or leave it where children can get a hold of it.

Keep it away from pets.

Follow the instructions at the bottom of this page to clean it off of yourself, your CPU, and other hardware.

Caution:
While much safer than silver greases engineered for high electrical conductivity, Arctic Silver thermal compound should be kept away from electrical traces, pins, and leads. The compound is slightly capacitive and could cause problems if it bridged two close-proximity electrical paths.
Caution:
Never turn on a computer without a heatsink properly mounted on the CPU with a thermal interface material between the CPU core and the heatsink. A modern high-performance CPU can be permanently damaged in less than 10 seconds without proper cooling.
Caution:
Arctic Silver is a grease and does not have any adhesive qualities. It will never dry or set and cannot be used to glue a heatsink to a chip.
To permanently glue a heatsink to a chip that does not have any other attachment method, please use Arctic Silver Adhesive or Arctic Alumina Adhesive.
Caution:
We do not recommend using Arctic Silver on the older slot type Intel Xeon processors with large multiple square inch CPU to heatsink interfaces. The huge contact area and large gaps between the processor and the heatsink require a thermal pad or thick mesh-reinforced paste.

Arctic Silver can be used on socket type Xeons without a problem.

Important Reminder:
Due to the unique shape and sizes of the particles in Arctic Silver's conductive matrix, it will take a up to 200 hours and several thermal cycles to achieve maximum particle to particle thermal conduction and for the heatsink to CPU interface to reach maximum conductivity. (This period will be longer in a system without a fan on the heatsink or with a low speed fan on the heatsink.) On systems measuring actual internal core temperatures via the CPU's internal diode, the measured temperature will often drop 2C to 5C over this "break-in" period. This break-in will occur during the normal use of the computer as long as the computer is turned off from time to time and the interface is allowed to cool to room temperature. Once the break-in is complete, the computer can be left on if desired.


Application Instructions
1. Even though Arctic Silver thermal compound is specifically engineered for high electrical resistance, you should keep the compound away from processor, memory, and motherboard traces and pins. There is a possibility that dust or metal particles and/or shavings carried by the airflow inside the computer case could contaminate the compound and increase its electrical conductivity.

2. ONLY Arctic Silver thermal compound should be between the processor core and the heatsink. Remove any thermal pads or other interface material from the heatsink before applying the Arctic Silver. Thermal pads can be scraped off with a plastic tool that will not scratch the bottom then the remnants can be removed with a xylene based cleaner, (Goof Off and some carburetor cleaners) acetone, mineral spirits, or high-purity isopropyl alcohol.
Never use any oil or petroleum based cleaners (WD-40, citrus oil based cleaners and many automotive degreasers) on the base of a heatsink. The oil, which is engineered to not evaporate, will fill in the microscopic valleys in the metal and significantly reduce the effectiveness of any subsequently applied thermal compound.

If your heatsink has a thermal 'pad' mounted on it, this pad must be removed before using Arctic Silver thermal compound. Thermal pads are made with paraffin wax that melts once it gets hot. When it melts, it will fill in the microscopic valleys in the heatsink with wax. To minimize the permanent contamination of the mounting surface with wax, the thermal pad should be removed before it is used and melted. Never use heat or hot water to remove the pad, the heat will melt the wax into the heatsink.


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If you have a small core CPU like an Intel P3 or AMD, continue on to step 3.
If you have a Intel P4 or Athlon64 type CPU with a large metal heat spreader, skip steps 3 through 8 and go to step 9.


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3. On the CPU, Arctic Silver thermal compound should only be applied to the top of the core. The core is the raised rectangle in the center of the CPU and is highlighted in red in the photos below of AMD and Intel CPUs.




4. Clean the mating surfaces completely with a low residual solvent (High-purity isopropyl alcohol or acetone will work) and a LINT FREE cloth. (i.e. lens cleaning cloth) If another thermal compound has previously been applied to the heatsink, the mounting surface should be thoroughly scrubbed and cleaned with a xylene based cleaner, (Goof Off and some carburetor cleaners) acetone, mineral spirits, or 99% pure isopropyl alcohol. It is important to keep the surfaces free of foreign materials and NOT to touch the surfaces (a hair, piece of lint, and even dead skin cells can significantly affect the thermal interfaces performance, especially on modern small core CPUs as the surface area is already severely limited). In addition, oils from your fingers can adversely affect the performance by preventing the micronized silver fill from directly contacting the metal surface. (Fingerprints can be as thick as 0.005")

5. For Arctic Silver 1, 2 and 3:
Determine what area on the base of the heatsink will contact the CPU core once the heatsink is mounted. Twist the plunger in the syringe barrel at least 1/2 turn to ensure that it is free. Squeeze enough Arctic Silver thermal compound onto the center of this area to create a small mound as shown in the photo below on the left.
Do not apply the Arctic Silver thermal compound directly to the CPU.




On the small core CPUs, use a clean razor, the clean edge of a credit card, a clean knife, or some other appropriate clean tool to pick up a small dab of the Arctic Silver compound from the mound you put on the heatsink as shown in the photo above on the right. Put the dab of Arctic Silver thermal compound you removed from the heatsink base onto one corner of the CPU core as shown in the photo below.

For Arctic Silver 5:
Carefully apply the thermal compound directly to the core of the CPU.

For all Arctic Silver versions:
Only apply the thermal compound to the top of the actual CPU core. (Also known as the slug or die.) In the photo to the right it is the small raised blue rectangle in the middle of the Celeron II processor. On an AMD Duron or T-bird, it is the small raised rectangle in the center of the AMD processor.

Only a very small amount of Arctic Silver is needed on small CPU cores like Intel P3s and AMDs. Transfer about 1/2 the size of an uncooked grain of short-grain white rice or 1/4 of a BB for small core CPUs.


6. For Arctic Silver 1, 2 and 3 only:

Using the remainder of the compound you applied to the base of the heatsink, tint the bottom of the heatsink in the area where the CPU core will contact it. Put a finger into a plastic bag and thoroughly rub the compound into the base of the heatsink using both clockwise and counter-clockwise circular motion. This will ensure optimum filling of the microscopic valleys in the metal.

DO NOT use your bare finger to apply or smooth the compound (skin cells, and oils again)







Re-clean the heatsink surface with a LINT FREE cloth. Do not use any solvent or fluid. You may notice that the base of the heatsink is slightly discolored even after all the compound would seem to have been removed. That is the Arctic Silver thermal compound filling the microscopic valleys.


7. For all Arctic Silver versions:
Spread the Arctic Silver thermal compound over the CPU core as shown in the photo to the right. The small amount from the photo in step 5 above has been carefully spread over the top of the core using a single edge razor blade. A razor blade or the clean edge of a credit card can be used as the application tool. You may use whatever tool you choose as long as it is CLEAN and allows you to control the application area and thickness.

The flatter the mating surfaces, the thinner the layer that is required. Stock processors and/or heatsinks with normal surface irregularities will require a layer 0.003" to 0.005 thick as shown below to fill the resultant gaps. (Equal to the thickness of about 1 sheet of standard weight paper.) Properly lapped heatsinks with mirror finishes will only require a translucent haze.








Here is a close up of the top of the CPU core with a fairly thick layer of Arctic Silver thermal compound applied. Lapped heatsinks would probably require a thinner layer while heatsinks with very rough bases could require a slightly thicker layer.


8. RE-CHECK to make sure no foreign contaminants are present on either the bottom of the heatsink or the top of the CPU core. Mount the heatsink on the CPU in the proper orientation per the heatsink's instructions. Verify that the pressure point on the clip is directly above the CPU core.

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If you have a small core CPU like an Intel P3 or AMD, you are done mounting the heatsink. Please see the storage and removal sections below.
If you have a Intel P4 or Athlon 64 type CPU with a large metal heat spreader, continue on to step 10.


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9. On an Intel P4 or Athlon64 type CPU with a large metal heat spreader, put a small amount of Arctic Silver onto the center of the heat spreader as shown in the photo.
Only a small amount of Arctic Silver is needed

P4- About the size of an uncooked grain of short-grain white rice or 1/2 of a BB.

Athlon64- About the size of one and a half uncooked grains of short-grain white rice or 3/4 of a BB.


10. RECHECK to make sure no foreign contaminants are present on either the bottom of the heatsink or the top of the CPU core. Mount the heatsink on the CPU per the heatsink's instructions. Be sure to lower the heatsink straight down onto the CPU.

Once the heatsink is properly mounted, grasp the heatsink and very gently twist it slightly clockwise and counterclockwise one time each if possible. (Just one or two degrees or so.)

Please note that some heatsinks cannot be twisted once mounted.



Our testing has shown that this method minimizes the possibility of air bubbles and voids in the thermal interface between the heat spreader and the heatsink. Since the vast majority of the heat from the core travels directly through the heat spreader, it is more important to have a good interface directly above the actual CPU core than it is to have the heat spreader covered with compound from corner to corner.



The photo to the right shows how the pressure from the heatsink base spreads the compound and also shows a P4 with the heat spreader removed to show the location of the actual CPU core that is the source of the heat.

While the CPU core on an Athlon64 is slightly larger than the P4 core, it is still much smaller than the metal CPU Cap that covers it.






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Removal Instructions (From Hardware)
1. Arctic Silver thermal compound can easily be removed from hardware using the proper cleaners and tools. For general clean-up, a cloth or paper towel will work well. Intricate cleaning can be accomplished with Q-tip swabs. An old toothbrush can often get the compound out of crevices that other tools cannot reach.
The recommended cleaners are:

CPU Core:
Use high-purity isopropyl alcohol or acetone and a bit of careful rubbing.
Do not use nail polish remover as it contains fragrance oils and other contaminants.
(If you use acetone, do a final cleaning with isopropyl alcohol.)

Heatsink:
Use xylene based products (Goof Off, some carburetor cleaners and many brake cleaners.), mineral spiritsm or high-purity isopropyl alcohol.

Remember:
Once you have applied a thermal grease or melted a thermal pad onto a heatsink, it is impossible to remove all of the grease or pad from the microscopic valleys in the heatsink using standard cleaning chemicals and paper or fabric towels. Any subsequent thermal material will be applied over the remnants of the original material.

Never use any oil or petroleum based cleaners (WD-40, citrus oil based grease removers and many automotive degreasers) on the base of a heatsink. The oil, which is engineered to not evaporate, will fill in the microscopic valleys in the metal and significantly reduce the effectiveness of any subsequently applied thermal compound.

CPU Ceramic:
Use any of the following cleaners.

Any dish detergent. (Dawn, Lux, Palmolive, Etc.)
Do not use soap for an automatic dishwasher to clean a CPU.

WD-40, citrus based cleaners.

Xylene based products. (Goof Off, some carburetor cleaners and many brake cleaners.)

Mineral spirits. (Be careful to keep the mineral spirits away from the core.)

Once the majority of the compound has been removed from the ceramic, small patches remaining on the ceramic can be 'erased' with a soft eraser.


2. If you use any of the suggested products to remove Arctic Silver thermal compound from the CPU ceramic or heatsink base, always do a final cleaning with isopropyl alcohol to remove any residue from the cleaner.


Removal Instructions (From You)
1. Wash your hands with any dish washing detergent (Dawn, Lux, Palmolive, Etc.) rather than hand soap.
(Do not use soap for an automatic dishwasher.)
Arctic Silver is a registered trademark of Arctic Silver, Inc.
All information on this page is 2001,2002, 2003, 2004 Arctic Silver, Inc.

:lol2:

sniggle
10-02-04, 12:28 PM
it worries me that these silencers need such a thick layer of paste. it just screams poor workmanship. i've read quite a few posts about how the paste only appears to work on half of the gpu. either all of these people are screwing it on incorrectly (doubtful), or the silencers were produced with sort of a warped overall shape. luckily, i only apply a very thin layer of as5 to mine and it appears to make consistent contact.

the finish of the silencer is also very poor, as far as processor heatsink standards are concerned. the fact that there is 0 reflection and you can see little bumps tells me that their quality standards are nonexistant. i took some sandpaper and lapped mine and it made a few degrees difference, so i would advise trying that. you can see pictures of it in this thread: http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=37424

BrownHornet
10-02-04, 01:47 PM
Ive been putting tape around the gpu applying the paste with a stick from my articsilver 3.

I the put a piece of tape on my finger to smooth it out only adding more if i see the gpu under a spot i just rubbed.

Good ol scotch tape works great. :)

mustrum
10-03-04, 03:01 AM
it worries me that these silencers need such a thick layer of paste. it just screams poor workmanship. i've read quite a few posts about how the paste only appears to work on half of the gpu. either all of these people are screwing it on incorrectly (doubtful), or the silencers were produced with sort of a warped overall shape. luckily, i only apply a very thin layer of as5 to mine and it appears to make consistent contact.

the finish of the silencer is also very poor, as far as processor heatsink standards are concerned. the fact that there is 0 reflection and you can see little bumps tells me that their quality standards are nonexistant. i took some sandpaper and lapped mine and it made a few degrees difference, so i would advise trying that. you can see pictures of it in this thread: http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=37424
The ATI Silencer 4 was 20 bucks. A good copper HS for a CPU is 40 bucks without the fan! Can't compare these! I think silencers are dirt cheap (in europe) and you can't expect a perfect lapped HS for that money.
My Silencer did wonders to my x800 for onyl 20 bucks. (Euros = 26$)

UberRN69
10-03-04, 01:03 PM
I used a moderate amount on mine. Some people say that too much AS5 "insulates" and will trap heat in. This is completely BOGUS :wimp:. AS5 is a thermal conductor and is designed to TRANSFER heat, not keep it in (fart). The only draw back to using too much AS5 is that it makes a mess. You just use what you need.

My own NV5 experience was that 2 of the memory chips didn't quite match up against my NV5 (this was a slight flaw of my PNY 6800 GT card). I simply added enough AS5 so that heat was able to transfer effectively. Once tightened down, only a very small amount was sqweezing out the sides. I have idle temps at 50-52c and load 63-66c. :thumbsup: