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ogretech
10-06-04, 10:13 AM
I've spent about 3 weeks researching and exploring sound-alike issues but never finding a solution or a good match to my problems. Thus I come here seeking the wisdom of my peers

Symptoms (Provided as group since all appear to crash in the same way, at nearly the same time when enabling advance graphics features (in this case with FSAA potentially being a common thread.))

Doom3 crash on load (if FSAA turned on in Advanced).
3dMark 05 Crash on Demo
Codecreatures Crash on FSAA
Far Cry Crash if FSAA turned on.
Nvidia Demos Nalu and Clear Sailing crash upon load.

Note Doom, Codecreature, Far Cry run fine in 1280x1024/32 @60Hz w/o FSAA. (as does 3DMark as benchmark). However the nVidia demos always crash as does 3DMark05 in Demo mode. Note they all begin to run, often starting music or displaying some 2D elements only to hang windows or slow down to ultimately result in windows crashing (normally with BSOD)/restarting and offering to send the report to MS.


System.

MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum (currently 1.36B bios)
Athlon 64 3500+
BFG 6800GT OC
200GB Seagate SATA drive
1GB Corsair Value Select DDR PC-3200 RAM (512x2 in dual channel)
380W Antec PS (in Antec Sonata case)
2 Compaq 17 CRTs (@60Hz) in Dualview
Windows XP Pro/SP2


Attemped fixes:

Clean Install of Windows (->SP2): No change (though less junk)
New ram (to that listed): Faster but no change to crash.
New video card bios to (Leadtek 6800GT): No change
New PS to that listed: No change.
New HD from PATA to SATA listed: No Change
A myriad of MSI MB bioses from 1.0 to the current 1.36B: No change.
Virtually every nVidia driver from 61.21 to 66.81: No change (though vastly improved performance).
Running with 1 monitor: No change.
Fast Writes on and Off: No change
Using Coolbits to match 2D clock speed to 3D clock speed: No change.

Frankly, I'm running out of ideas for things to fiddle with! :-)

The only slightly positive thing I've ever seen in trying to get FSAA to work is sometimes, immediately after I use Driver Cleaner and install a new set of graphic drivers, a game may work with FSAA turned on for one (and only one) time. Exiting the program and immediately running it again reverts to the crash symptoms. In this case it seems if I do anything at all (like go to the graphics control panel prior to running the game (immediately after new drivers) it will not run either).

I'm stumped.

Any thoughts or wisdom would be appreciated.


Steve

NEODARK
10-06-04, 10:21 AM
I have the same CPU, mobo (v1.3 bios) and vid card (BFG OC)

mine is perfectly stable (although it had the freezing problem when going over 425 core). you can try to up the VAGP (agp voltage) from 1.5 to 1.6v as its what BFG recomends for added stability

-check the event log, and post what error you are getting...
-if you are overclocking, make sure the AGP/PCI lock is enabled...
-what are your card's temps @ load/idle?

Marcos
10-06-04, 10:23 AM
I got nothin' but did you ever think you may just have a bunk card/mobo/cpu?

have you tried 1 stick of ram in single channel mode?

id be kicking my **** all over the place if it was my pc.

ogretech
10-06-04, 11:22 AM
Thanks for the comments:

Upped the AGP voltage to 1.6V: No change.
Turned off Fast Writes in BIOS: No change.
Changed HD to SATA3/4 (from 1/2): Good idea for other reasons, but NO Change.
Removed 1 stick of ram (thus running at 512MB single channel): No change.
Poked eyes several more times: No change. :-)

Neodark: I'll try to get a quote on the temps (though they haven't seemed out of line to other quotes I've seen). What version bios does your video card have?

After recovering from the crash windows generally reports this as the error: Error Message: STOP 0x000000EA THREAD_STUCK_IN_DEVICE_DRIVER (Q293078)

Thanks,
-SDC

Riptide
10-06-04, 11:27 AM
Infinite loop error. You could have a bad video card there.

camelot
10-06-04, 11:31 AM
I dont think a 380w Antec is going to be good enough with your system. Whats the 12v rating on it? You need at least 20A, if not more for reliable operation. I had an Antec truepower 430 with 18A on the 12v and it really wasnt enough to power my system, so i switched to a PCP&C 510D and havent looked back.

Riptide
10-06-04, 11:33 AM
Good point camelot, I didn't notice that power supply. It's definitely suspect.

If I were ogre I'd go down to best buy and get myself a "cheap" but reliable Antec 480W trupower and see if that helps. If it doesn't... exchange that video card.

Gn00b
10-06-04, 12:00 PM
ogretech-

was your system ever stable? I mean, is this a complete new build, or are you simply upgrading the graphics card and/or other components?

Also, what memory timings are you using?

ogretech
10-06-04, 12:09 PM
Gn00b:

This is an entirely new build from the ground up (hardware and software).

With respect to these issues it's never been stable, though I've been slow to assemble them into a single potential issue. (e.g. Nalu was one of the first things I tried and it didn't work, but many people had problems with it so I just kept on moving... Doom ran and benched great so I never chose to wrestle with the FSAA issue, etc.) . I can play Doom and Far Cry all day w/o FSAA and by all other measure the machine runs great and is otherwise "stable".

Thanks,

SDC

NEODARK
10-06-04, 12:28 PM
Thanks for the comments:
Neodark: I'll try to get a quote on the temps (though they haven't seemed out of line to other quotes I've seen). What version bios does your video card have?

-SDC

Not sure, not home at the moment, but I'll check later :)

also PSU might not be enough, like others said you need at least 20A in your 12v line for this setup (I have an Antec430 26A on 12v line) and havent had a single problem, although I dont think thats the imediate problem...

can you test your card in a different PC? (it might be something totally different)

-reinstall DX9c maybe?
-reseat the card in AGP slot?
-Error reported is an infiite loop like previously mentioned (card might be bad) for more info check this: link (http://support.microsoft.com/default.aspx?scid=kb;EN-US;q293078)

g'luck

saturnotaku
10-06-04, 12:42 PM
First of all, I would like to give ogretech all the props in the world for his posts here. You did exactly what you should have when coming onto these forums. You listed your complete system specs along with a detailed description of your problems and all the steps you done for troubleshooting. Your posts are a prototypical example of how one should post in an online tech forum. Good on 'ya. :clap:

Now getting back to your issues, my first instinct is that this is power related. As has been suggested, try swapping out your power supply. If that doesn't work, see if you can try another video card in your PC. It sounds like whenever there is more stress put on the GPU with FSAA. That might mean the card itself is defective in that it's not delivering proper power.

Good luck.

circuitbreaker8
10-06-04, 02:26 PM
I've heard a lot of complaints with that MSI board, might wanna try swapping boards ( if you can ) to see if thats the prob.

Templar
10-06-04, 02:32 PM
just to be sure.. U gotten the new nForce platform drivers?
Simon

ogretech
10-06-04, 03:09 PM
Templar:

Yes (I should have posted that too). I triedit with the both the 5.03 platform drivers from MSI and the 5.10 drivers from nVidia.

--

On the matter of power: I currently have an Antec Truepower 380W, that (as stated on the PS, delivers 18A on the +12V).

Unfortunately, I don't have immediate access to components to swap in/out. Though attaining a new PS may be the quickest and least expensive place to start.

In my system specs, I accidently ommitted an NEC DVD burner, a modem and a TV card (though I've since removed them all for the sake of testing). None of these changes (which should, I believe, affect overall power usage) results in any change at all in the timing or nature of my crashes upon enabling FSAA and/or running the aforementioned apps). The precise and regular (i.e. not intermittent in the least) nature of these crashes makes me a bit dubious of power being my issue, but others clearly feel differently).

I've also reverted to a pre-SP2 install and have the exact same issue.

Thanks again for all the comments.

-SDC

camelot
10-06-04, 03:37 PM
Are you running an exclusive molex from the PSU to the GT? If you daisy chain off another part like a HD it can cause issues too. Something to look into.

ogretech
10-06-04, 04:41 PM
Camelot:

The Video card is the only device on the cable as it comes from the PS. (SATA on separate strand and a 120mm fan (on another strand from the PS labled FAN ONLY) are the only other devices (other than MB) hooked to the PS).


Others things I've tried today:

Revert specifically to MSI bios 1.1: No change.
Change HT in BIOS to 4 (from 5): No change.
Diabled NV Speedup in "Hidden" bios options: No change.
Poked eyeballs: Still no change. :retard:

Thank you.

-SDC

camelot
10-06-04, 04:51 PM
Is there anyway to test the card in someone elses PC?

Wuppiecat
10-09-04, 04:06 PM
I had a very similar problem and like you spent hours trying to sort it out, in the end after trying everything mine was down to RAM timings.
I have 2x256Mb Golden Dragon PC3500 2/6-3-3 1T which was running at those settings, for my Neo Plat, 3000+ and GFX5900 that was fine. When I went to GFX6800, Neo2 & 3500+ I had all the problems you described when the bios was set to auto for all the RAM timings (which picked up the 1T) when I stepped down to 2T everything became rock solid.
So my advice is back off on the RAM and see if that helps (I also have FastWrites disabled at the mo)....

AnteP
10-10-04, 03:13 AM
Set Optimize Performance to Manual, I had similar problems and that solved it for me.
That setting overclocks the videocard as hell on my rig. Core up to 475 MHz which is sure as hell can't handle.

samch
10-13-04, 10:50 AM
Similar problem, similar system.
MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum (RMA'd once) and AMD Athlon 64 3500+ (RMA'd once)
4 sticks of Crucial CT6464Z40B (2GB total)
eVGA 6800GT 256MB
Antec TRUE550 Power Supply
WD Raptor 74GB and WD 200GB SATA
WinXP SP2
No overclocking

I can't run Doom3 without freezing the system (I do have it set to "Ultra" quality). Also, other benchmarks will freeze my system. Actually, sometimes my system just freezes when I surf the Internet or open an app. Very strange behavior. Please let me know if you find a solution. I really need to figure this out. It's driving me crazy - but it's also good to know that I'm not alone.

AnteP
10-13-04, 11:36 AM
Similar problem, similar system.
MSI K8N Neo2 Platinum (RMA'd once) and AMD Athlon 64 3500+ (RMA'd once)
4 sticks of Crucial CT6464Z40B (2GB total)
eVGA 6800GT 256MB
Antec TRUE550 Power Supply
WD Raptor 74GB and WD 200GB SATA
WinXP SP2
No overclocking

I can't run Doom3 without freezing the system (I do have it set to "Ultra" quality). Also, other benchmarks will freeze my system. Actually, sometimes my system just freezes when I surf the Internet or open an app. Very strange behavior. Please let me know if you find a solution. I really need to figure this out. It's driving me crazy - but it's also good to know that I'm not alone.

Well as I said in my post above: I just disabled the "Optimize Performance" setting to "Manual" in the BIOS.
Check with coolbits to see if your gfx clock frequencies are correct and take a look to see that your FSB isn't overclocked.

My board overclocked both the gfx and the fsb at stock settings which isn't ok by any standard if you ask me...

ogretech
10-13-04, 02:51 PM
I checked the bios, (including changing my memory timing to 2T (from the auto setting of 1T) and even went so far as to flash by video card 2d and 3d clocks the same. All with no change in my problems.

Since my original post however, I have added an Antec NeoPower PSU which also resulted in no change, though the PSU is cool and fashionable enough.

Unfortunately, my board seems to have the trifecta of issues I've seen posted. It has now exhibited a couple of the other commonly posted problems including (but not limited to):

My nVidia network port has disappeared (and no longer even comes back after disconnecting the power cord for reasonable periods of time (and I have turned off the windows power management for the card in the Device Manger)).

And most irritatingly, the onboard sound has all together vanished. Changes in the bios have no effect, and Windows (as well as Linux via Gnoppix) can find no sign of it at all.

I have just picked up a new a new MB, with luck my problems will be reduced to a managable subset of the headaches thus far.

Just for the sake of record keeping (perhaps there is something to be found in this):

My old MB S/N: K0408057200 (Purchased from GameVE.com)
My new MB S/N: K0409088635 (RMA from MSI).

See ya on the other side...

Wuppiecat
10-13-04, 03:44 PM
good luck with the rebuild...

samch
10-13-04, 07:52 PM
My issue appears to be related to having four identical DIMMs (4 x 512MB) installed. Here are the results of my troubleshooting efforts:

Here it goes:
Disable Fastwrites: did not help
DOT: Has always been disabled
SATA Swap: Did not attempt
Uninstall SP2: Did not attempt
Ran memtest86 version 3.1a (tests 1 through 7): No memory errors found
Remove DIMMs in banks 3 and 4: SUCCESS! (no freeze)
(note: used memory timing 1T)
Replaced DIMMs in banks 1 and 2 with those that were in 3 and 4: SUCCESS!
(note: used memory timing 1T)
Removed DIMMs from banks 1 and 2 and placed them in 3 and 4: SUCCESS!
(note: used memory timing 1T)
Used all DIMMs (filled banks 1 through 4) and set 1T memory timing: would not POST

These DIMMs are single-sided (8 chip).
So, this board apparently does not support four 512MB modules.
Is that everybody else's conclusion too?

AnteP
10-14-04, 01:42 AM
My issue appears to be related to having four identical DIMMs (4 x 512MB) installed. Here are the results of my troubleshooting efforts:

Here it goes:
Disable Fastwrites: did not help
DOT: Has always been disabled
SATA Swap: Did not attempt
Uninstall SP2: Did not attempt
Ran memtest86 version 3.1a (tests 1 through 7): No memory errors found
Remove DIMMs in banks 3 and 4: SUCCESS! (no freeze)
(note: used memory timing 1T)
Replaced DIMMs in banks 1 and 2 with those that were in 3 and 4: SUCCESS!
(note: used memory timing 1T)
Removed DIMMs from banks 1 and 2 and placed them in 3 and 4: SUCCESS!
(note: used memory timing 1T)
Used all DIMMs (filled banks 1 through 4) and set 1T memory timing: would not POST

These DIMMs are single-sided (8 chip).
So, this board apparently does not support four 512MB modules.
Is that everybody else's conclusion too?

What do you have "High Performance Mode" set to?
In the manual it is described as:
"This field allows you to select the DDR timing setting. Setting to [Optimized] enables Adjust DDR Memory Frequency automatically to be determined by SPD. Selecting [Manual] allows users to configure these fields manually. Setting options: [Optimized],
[Manual]."

But that's a load of crap. This setting overclocks your videocard (I've had that confirmed by an MSI technician) and on my rig it was the root of all evil.
Set it to Manual.

Also try disabling "Aggressive Timing".