View Full Version : Matrox Parhelia Review Feedback
Typedef Enum
11-09-02, 05:05 PM
Let me know what you guys think. Were there any items not covered? Any particular things you didn't agree with? etc. ?
Regards...
thcdru2k
11-09-02, 05:36 PM
wow..i'm impressed with the parhelia performance..certainly very playable. too bad the price is too expensive..and monitors and all. nice review too.
For Price / Performance it's "teh suck!" :D
Seriously tho, If it were priced against the low end performers ($100)... it'd be a humm-dinger! ;)
I mean, I disagree that dropping the price to the $250 range would be low enough.
~Matrox needs to rebuild it's reputation... $100 price would do it, and saturate the market "a little" with their product.
~NV30 is around the corner, which will bring the price down of better performers.
~R350 prolly not far behind, same issue, brings down price of better performers
~Surround gaming is a nice novelty... but I ain't got room for 3 bulky monitors, and I sure as hell am not gonna spend the money on 3 flat panels, when I won't even buy 1 (Still waiting for major glow-time reduction technology).
/shrug
Over-all, nice review, though.
Taz
ReDeeMeR
11-09-02, 07:16 PM
Meh, I'm wondering how they still survive and keep their R&D and stuff.... I havent seen a Parhelia used it any PC just on internet...
John Reynolds
11-09-02, 07:16 PM
Excellent, thorough review Scott. I'm very impressed with your commentary, your writing, the page layouts, and the exhaustive coverage of all details and aspects of the board and its drivers.
StealthHawk
11-09-02, 09:56 PM
Originally posted by TheTaz
~Matrox needs to rebuild it's reputation... $100 price would do it, and saturate the market "a little" with their product.
except that they would lose a lot of money on each card at that price, no doubt.
i may be sounding like a moron, but where is this review located :confused:
thcdru2k
11-09-02, 10:09 PM
he took it down for some reason :/
Typedef Enum
11-10-02, 02:20 AM
Mike is in the process of conforming the layout to the new nvnews standard. I hope it won't take too long.
On the topic of 9700/NV30...Don't get me wrong at all, I think the 9700 is a fantastic board, and I have no doubt that NV30 is going to knock everybodys socks off...
However...when I decided to get the Parhelia, I asked myself one simple question...Which board is going to offer me something new? Something exciting? The 9700 would allow me to play pretty much any game...at any resolution, with pretty much any driver tweak enabled. That's kool and all, but I do not believe it really offers something dramatically new.
As I said, all of that will change once Doom III arrives. Clearly, a next-gen part will be a must. But until then, I really don't see any of these parts giving the end-user something "new."
Now, if NV30 were to support something like a Surround Gaming...Then, we're talking about a totally different ballgame. (I can only hope)
Raptorman
11-10-02, 08:42 AM
NV30 won't support Surround Gaming. nVIDIA already said they won't support that feature, yet.
legion88
11-10-02, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by Typedef Enum
Mike is in the process of conforming the layout to the new nvnews standard. I hope it won't take too long.
On the topic of 9700/NV30...Don't get me wrong at all, I think the 9700 is a fantastic board, and I have no doubt that NV30 is going to knock everybodys socks off...
However...when I decided to get the Parhelia, I asked myself one simple question...Which board is going to offer me something new? Something exciting? The 9700 would allow me to play pretty much any game...at any resolution, with pretty much any driver tweak enabled. That's kool and all, but I do not believe it really offers something dramatically new.
As I said, all of that will change once Doom III arrives. Clearly, a next-gen part will be a must. But until then, I really don't see any of these parts giving the end-user something "new."
Now, if NV30 were to support something like a Surround Gaming...Then, we're talking about a totally different ballgame. (I can only hope)
The consumer graphics industry as a whole has not offered anything "dramatically new" to the table since the GeForce2/Voodoo5/Radeon 256 generation (with the exception of Matrox). That's two years and running.
Matrox has been giving us something new to look at but most consumers will never have the opportunity to use them. How many of us are willing to spend the money on three monitors, in addition to the cost of the video card? How many even have room for three monitors?
People complain about the cost of video cards these days. But the true cost of "surround gaming" is considerably more than people think.
I haven't seen your review by the way.
saturnotaku
11-10-02, 10:14 AM
Originally posted by legion88
People complain about the cost of video cards these days. But the true cost of "surround gaming" is considerably more than people think.
And considering this card's lackluster performance compared to what's out there now and what will be out in the near future, the Parhelia is essentially caught in the vortex that is ATI and NVIDIA.
If the Parhelia had been released at the time of the Radeon 8500, then Matrox would definitely have had something. But, like a lot of things in this industry, it's another case of too little, too late.
Hey... come on...
yeah, Type Def, it's me... ;) I have been here quite long but suprinsgly no one didn't read my user name as mirrored. :p
anyways...
Why on earth everyone is talking about BUYING THREE monitors?? Heck I have already two pretty okay 17 incher CRTs and 2nd hand 3rd one does not cost more than 100 Euros (that's a max.) Of Course I need a bigger table but I think my parents old Dinner table is okay for this. :)
I know that most of here are Extreme users and many of you have more than one computer. (few ones have on Linux boxes running on some corner) And there's always some old junk left over that will not be sold or will be sold very cheap. So, why not buying few 2nd hand 17 inchers for Surround Gaming? I mean, a year ago there was 2 computers on my parents place: one with 17" Jean Monitor and one slower with 2x15 inchers. after few hours getting used to two monitors, I didn't even think about movin back to that one with only one 17" monitor. (And even when I came back to my student flat, I almost started to hate having only one monitor, though it is 21" HP P1110.)
and yes, I am going go for parhelia on december. :) Lot's of fun coming up with SG on christmas holiday. ;)
Solomon
11-10-02, 11:11 AM
Great review, Scott...
I would just like to add, that the people who are interested in the Parhelia are not the ones you will find visiting nV News, HardOCP, Anandtech, etc...
The parhelia will find a home for users who are coders, web designers, graphic artists, desktop publishers. The ones who don't frequent gaming websites. That is probably why everyone is coming down on the Parhelia card so much, because the majority are frame rate *****s and that's what most of the visitors to such websites care about. Everyone can deny it all they want, but it's 3DMark2001 that and FPS in this game or that game.
It's really sad if you ask me.
Plus, I love at all the people who are bitching about price. In my mind the cards price is fine. Sure it could sell alot more if it drops to a $299.00 or a $250.00 price point, but folks wake up and smell the coffee.
Matrox has features no one else has so the price can be as high as they want it to be. You got Surround Gaming, Triple display, FAA... Features no other card has.
Don't you people recall a company that went by Number Nine? They where one of the biggest 2D graphic card companies and the prices of their line of video card was outrageous, but did you see people bitch so much? Nope... They paid for what they wanted. Simple as that. For the people who are bitching about price? Then the card is obviously not for you.
If their is a market for Porsche's, Lamborghini's, etc... Then their is a market for the Parhelia card. Just because I can't afford a Porsche doesn't mean I have to constantly bitch about the price of the car being way out of my price range.
All Matrox has to do is wake up and target the users who will be using this card for Surround Gaming. The majority of the buyers of this card aren't full out hardcore gamers and that means they are usually the SIMS and Real time gamers.
It would be cool to see, Roller Coaster Tycoon 2, SIMS Online, etc... type of games support Surround Gaming.
That's my two cents.
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com
I was going insane trying to figure out what review you guys were talking about! :D
Hopefully, Mike will get that online again soon so I can check it out!
:D
Typedef
Congrats, its nice to see a review of this card with so much enthusiasm and objectivity. I orginally pre-ordered this card from Matrox but cancelled the order when I decided to that I wasnt prepared to shell out £330 for a vid card. I ended up with a 4200 instead. However, I still think the UK RRP price of this needs coming down to the sub £220 level.
Regards MD
gravioli
11-10-02, 07:09 PM
Originally posted by pelly
I was going insane trying to figure out what review you guys were talking about! :D
Hopefully, Mike will get that online again soon so I can check it out!
:D
Whew! I am glad I am not the only one. I just wasted 5 minutes looking for it. :)
StealthHawk
11-10-02, 08:16 PM
Originally posted by 1eppan
anyways...
Why on earth everyone is talking about BUYING THREE monitors?? Heck I have already two pretty okay 17 incher CRTs and 2nd hand 3rd one does not cost more than 100 Euros (that's a max.) Of Course I need a bigger table but I think my parents old Dinner table is okay for this. :)
except if you're like me, those monitors are attached to other computers, which means i would have to carry them around back and forth for when i wanted to use them.
add to the fact that desk space is a real issue with 3 CRTs; they just wouldn't fit. and of course my older monitor is pretty bad quality-wise. the only reasonable option for 3 monitors are LCDs, and i doubt that most people have spare LCDs lying around.
saturnotaku
11-10-02, 08:58 PM
Originally posted by Solomon
I would just like to add, that the people who are interested in the Parhelia are not the ones you will find visiting nV News, HardOCP, Anandtech, etc...The parhelia will find a home for users who are coders, web designers, graphic artists, desktop publishers.
That's a sweeping generalization if I ever saw one. I am/was interested in the Parhelia and am not in this audience. I am a gamer/hardware enthusiast who was originally excited that there might be some decent competition to ATI and NVIDIA and was sorely disppointed when the Parhelia hasn't been able to deliver the kind of performance I was anticipating considering its price premium and existing competitors.
That is probably why everyone is coming down on the Parhelia card so much, because the majority are frame rate *****s and that's what most of the visitors to such websites care about. Everyone can deny it all they want, but it's 3DMark2001 that and FPS in this game or that game.
It's really sad if you ask me.
If ATI and NVIDIA were pumping out monster frame rates in games with shoddy image quality, then I might agree with you. But from what I've seen, the Radeon 9700 and Ti4600 do more than adequate jobs of handling 2D and 3D quality while delivering great performance in the 3D area.
3D gaming is going through a revolution now. It's not like it was in the 3dfx days where performance was the be all, end all. With cards like the 9700 and Ti4600, gamers need not compromise image quality for speed nearly as much as in the past. It's nice to be able to have our cake and eat it, too, and all for less than what the Parhelia costs.
Matrox has features no one else has so the price can be as high as they want it to be. You got Surround Gaming, Triple display, FAA... Features no other card has.
Those first two features you mention are one in the same to me. Matrox has 10-bit giga color or whatever, but that's a feature only the most discriminating people will ever bother to notice. FAA? If you're referring to FSAA, the 9700 has the Parhelia's number there, with quality and peformance to meet and exceed Matrox.
Don't you people recall a company that went by Number Nine? They where one of the biggest 2D graphic card companies and the prices of their line of video card was outrageous, but did you see people bitch so much? Nope... They paid for what they wanted. Simple as that. For the people who are bitching about price? Then the card is obviously not for you.
If their is a market for Porsche's, Lamborghini's, etc... Then their is a market for the Parhelia card. Just because I can't afford a Porsche doesn't mean I have to constantly bitch about the price of the car being way out of my price range.
By that logic then, Number 9 should still be in business.
Porsche and Lamborghini are still in business because their products are marketed correctly, with the emphasis on performance. The Parhelia will have its niche, but it's not with the hardcore gaming crowd.
All Matrox has to do is wake up and target the users who will be using this card for Surround Gaming. The majority of the buyers of this card aren't full out hardcore gamers and that means they are usually the SIMS and Real time gamers.
It would be cool to see, Roller Coaster Tycoon 2, SIMS Online, etc... type of games support Surround Gaming.
The types of people who play these games aren't hardcore gamers, I agree. At the same time, I know people who play these games and they are not the type of people who will go out and spend $350 for the Parhelia, plus $500+ on the monitor hardware just to be able to play the Sims on 3 monitors.
IMO Matrox should just abandon the gaming market all together. Concentrate on the professionals who would be able to see the benefits of 10-bit gigacolor in Photoshop and so forth.
For gamers, Matrox missed the boat. Their new features haven't been enough to offset the card's lackluster performance in comparison to its competition.
StealthHawk
11-10-02, 09:11 PM
Originally posted by Solomon
The parhelia will find a home for users who are coders, web designers, graphic artists, desktop publishers. The ones who don't frequent gaming websites. That is probably why everyone is coming down on the Parhelia card so much, because the majority are frame rate *****s and that's what most of the visitors to such websites care about. Everyone can deny it all they want, but it's 3DMark2001 that and FPS in this game or that game.
It's really sad if you ask me.
only problem being that it is a gaming card. probably the most innovative and enticing feature Parhelia offers is triple monitor support, also known as Surround Gaming. just accept the fact that Matrox was intending for Parhelia to be a gaming card, it just had the features without the teeth.
Typedef Enum
11-10-02, 10:46 PM
That's kinda funny...Because you will see about 7-8 graphs come tomorrow that will certainly remove the notion that this card does not have any teeth.
Of course, most of these benchmarks would never find their way into Anandtech, Firingsquad, etc.
I'm about "this close" to adding a page entitled "3DMark2001", and then doing someting like...
3DMark2001
---------------
This game sucks...
next...
etc.
thcdru2k
11-10-02, 10:56 PM
i saw it before it died and typedef is right :) it can sure handle 2400x600 with af :)
Solomon
11-10-02, 11:46 PM
I am a gamer/hardware enthusiast who was originally excited that there might be some decent competition to ATI and NVIDIA and was sorely disppointed when the Parhelia hasn't been able to deliver the kind of performance I was anticipating considering its price premium and existing competitors.
I'm a gamer, but I sit in front of my monitor and do alot of web work which would improved if I did have three monitors. I'm still waiting on the perfect LCD monitor. Actually going to try the new Hitachi soon to see if the 16ms rate it's given is legit. But here again you bring up price. Why is this another price/performance issue? We all know that if you are majority gaming you don't buy a Parhelia. In my eyes, the Parhelia is a work related card with the option of playing games at a respectable rate. You're not going to get 300 fps and you know what, you don't need that.
I'm just wondering what happend to all the Voodoo 2 users out there? Did suddenly they all just get a new sense of fluidity? I mean seriously. What happend to the 50 to 60fps as being all you really need? Now it's 300fps or the card is just slow... I love that. I laugh everyday when I see people stuck on numbers.
I've concentrated my work around video cards for the last 9 years and noticed a trend. From the early days of the Mystique/V2 combo, the majority have been craving for the frame rate number. It's amazing to see people treat their brands of video cards like it's a religion or something. Hehe.
It's just comical that the Parhelia is looked at strictly the gaming side of things. As Scott has experienced. If your work revolved around working on code, desktop publishing, etc... you would see the benefits of a triple display setup. Your work ethics improve because of sort and that my friends is worth every penny of that $399.99 price tag that people complain about. For the folks who don't want to spend their money on such a card then that's fine, no problem. But it's strange how defensive people get saying, "Well if the card was cheaper I would get it", or "ATi and Nvidia have about equal or better 2D quality and their 3D quality is alot faster then Matrox". It's apparent that most of you won't get the bang for the buck on the Parhelia as you probably won't get the benefits of using the Parhelia like Scott and I use it for.
Easy choosing...
You majority game on your PC? Get a 9700 / Ti4600 / Ti4200
You make money on your PC working on it day in and day out? Would using a multiple display help your every day computing? You see your productivity increase with using a multiple display? Get the Parhelia card. Does it really matter how Matrox was trying to market there card? I certainly don't. As to StealthHawk's comment. I don't have to accept the fact. I've heard the routine from Matrox, Nvidia, ATi all the time. You either get sucked in the propaganda of PR material or you look at what the card can do for you personally and not as a whole and then you are able to choose which card fits your computing style.
How do you people look at your video card?
D. Solomon Jr.
*********.com
Typedef Enum
11-11-02, 03:34 AM
Like I have said many times before, the performance issue has a lot to do with context.
If you're only talking about 10x7, then there will be a wider difference betweein a GF4 and Parhelia...though this still depends on a variety of factors.
If, however, you actually make use of those features at higher resolutions, then you have a totally different ballgame. So much so, in fact, that the Parhelia will overtake the GF4 in terms of higher performance.
This is what I have basically discovered...If you're talking about the standard benchmarks, there will be a larger differential @ lower resolutions...though it typically can be seen across many resolutions.
If, on the other hand, you're talking about regular old games, then the difference is either much smaller, or the Parhelia overtakes it entirely.
As soon as you add Antialiasing to the mix, then the Parhelia really does shine.
StealthHawk
11-11-02, 06:04 AM
If, however, you actually make use of those features at higher resolutions, then you have a totally different ballgame. So much so, in fact, that the Parhelia will overtake the GF4 in terms of higher performance.
if this is really true, i'm still skeptical of the comparison. shouldn't we be comparing the R9700Pro to the Parhelia? they are in the same price range, afterall.
is the Parhelia still limited to 2x AF? it seems a little unfair to compare the "max settings" of each card when one is doing less work and then proclaim it the winner. maybe newer drivers have helped Matrox out a bit.
i guess i'll just wait for the review to go back up, but that's something to think about.
As to StealthHawk's comment. I don't have to accept the fact. I've heard the routine from Matrox, Nvidia, ATi all the time. You either get sucked in the propaganda of PR material or you look at what the card can do for you personally and not as a whole and then you are able to choose which card fits your computing style.
well, i'm not saying it should be looked at only as a gaming card. of course it is up to the individual to make a call based on the evidence they have, and that will be that. however, based on the moniker, Matrox is obviously trying to get gamer's attentions.
Originally posted by Solomon
How do you people look at your video card?
fact seems to be that you either are the fastest or all of your cards just sucks.
I have been helping a lot of ppl doing updgrades on their computers during these 8 years I have been doing stuff with PCs. During last two years the first question when giving advices on GFX card has been "do you prefer some manufacturer?" if friend says something other than "Any goes as long as it does the job", there's no use of offering anything else than preferable card maker cards, though there would be something that suits better on the competitors list.
though 3D cards are started to be a normal part of even slowest computers, it still seems that ppl still prefer fps winner instead of card that would fit a bit better to their needs , though their Q3 fps would drop from 300 to 250. I still see ppl having ti4600 cards running Q3's without any AA nor AF and monitor is 17" KFC. "why I bought that card? well, my friend said it is the best so saved on monitor and got the fastest, yeah! and What's the difference between monitors anyway?? it's all the same, you know."
I agree with Scott that Parhelia never got a chance. partially because launch time drivers and partially because of reviews having "let's skip the usual stuff and take this card to the bench." attitude. But no can do, and "it's pretty much late to cry when the milk is already on the carpet."
Only thing is hope for better future the Matrox. Having one more player on the ground never makes bad to consumers. (or if you can claim something else, you truly are Die-Hard fan of some company.)
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