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Intel17
10-22-04, 11:31 AM
Ok guys, who do you think is a better coder of game engines, Tim Sweeney or John Carmack.

Please no responses such as, "Sweeney makes teh better games" or "Carmack's games are soo much better"
Because they don't make gameplay.

Gaco
10-22-04, 12:59 PM
They are both very good at their job, but John Carmack has shown supreme capacity and skill that still is unmatched IMO. His superior skills has been proven time after time in ID's games, and the Doom3 just underline that fact. I don't know anything about Tim Sweeny's work, how important he is to Epics games, but as the Unreal Engines are without any doubt are great ones, there has always been a superior engine out - Carmacks.

In any case, in glad that they are both in the industri and I'm delighted for their work and products :)

PS: All this could also change when Epic release Unreal 3? But I guess that Carmack and Co. will have something new ready for us at that time. I just don't see why we should talk so competative about these two fellos, I just see them as great people who have attribute that has contributed greatly to the industri and all the gamers ;)

|JuiceZ|
10-22-04, 01:26 PM
PS: All this could also change when Epic release Unreal 3? But I guess that Carmack and Co. will have something new ready for us at that time. I just don't see why we should talk so competative about these two fellos, I just see them as great people who have attribute that has contributed greatly to the industri and all the gamers ;)

Agreed. Truth is, John Carmack is a legend in the pc gaming industry and if it were not for Id, there wouldn't be a fps genre. Tim Sweeney is very much on his way to becoming one though, especially with the release of a game built off the incredibly detailed Unreal3 engine. Theses two guys have definitely made an great impact in the pc gaming industry & should continue into the next several years ;)

nVidi0t
10-22-04, 02:28 PM
Carmack is God.

That is all.

DMA
10-22-04, 02:32 PM
I have no idea who's best. I know they both look nerdy enough though. :wong:

Fatman
10-22-04, 02:35 PM
Both of them made tremendous advancements for the industry, and I'm grateful for their contributions. Also, I can't say that id makes great games. They make amazing technology demos, but game content has always been a little thin.

de><ta
10-22-04, 02:38 PM
Cliffy B!!!!(naw)

living proof that a game developer does not have to be fat or nerdish but can be real cool :super:

<runs away>

aAv7
10-22-04, 03:01 PM
isn't cliffy b the red-headed step child? He aint cool =P

But my vote goes to Sweeny....he knows how to implement high res textures to a wall.... :bleh:

Carmack basically had one great idea ....and recycled it with updates every 4 years.

-=DVS=-
10-22-04, 03:06 PM
Both good , Doom series and Unreal series started FPS crusade :D

Intel17
10-22-04, 03:34 PM
Carmack has more talent and knowledge, however, Tim Sweeney is more dedicated as of late, because Carmack is retiring :(

superklye
10-22-04, 03:48 PM
wasn't there already a big debate thread about this? or am I imagining it?

Intel17
10-22-04, 03:51 PM
I do not believe so...

In Anycase, They're both great at what they do, imo. It's just carmack knows where things are going, Sweeney is maybe as talented, but isnt as good as predicting...

aAv7
10-22-04, 04:07 PM
wasn't there already a big debate thread about this? or am I imagining it?

There's always a big debate about this :zzzz:

MustangSVT
10-22-04, 04:38 PM
I thought it was Cliff Blezinsky that coded the Unreal engines (or whatever he did). I guess he just works in design and some programming. Anyway I think John Carmack is pretty much considered "god" and Doom and Quake are proof of this. However, I really like the Unreal games. I love the big draw distance and how efficient they are (100fps) and there's a lot of Unreal powered games out there like America's Army, Rainbow Six 3 (and there's a lot more I think), and now Tribes Vengeance and that Star something game. Also, consider what has been shown by the Unreal 3 engine. Overall, I think I'm more fond of Carmack, but I think both are unique in their own way and should be greatly appreciated by everyone.

Last thing, what do you guys think of the CryTek engine. You got to hand it to the german guys. First game to support SM2.0b and SM3.0, first game that I know of with truly massive draw distance, first game to use many DX8.0/DX9.0 effects, free-roaming areas, really good vehicle physics, really good just overall physics, and first game to announce support for 64-bit (I think) and first game I know of that showcased true HDR (fp16 blending).

Subtestube
10-22-04, 04:43 PM
I tend towards Carmack... he's just so damn good. Half the things that are possible in PC graphics currently are mainly possible because of him. I even cited him in a graphics research project. In addition, it's my experience that Carmack graphics engines are significantly more efficient than Sweeney based ones. That's not to say that Sweeney is no good, but Carmack is a little better in my opinion - his wealth of knowledge and understanding of the graphics field really makes that little bit of difference [to me].

anzak
10-22-04, 04:50 PM
I voted Sweeney because I never was a fan of id games.

Skrot
10-22-04, 07:49 PM
Agreed. Truth is, John Carmack is a legend in the pc gaming industry and if it were not for Id, there wouldn't be a fps genre.As much as I'd like to agree with you and say "Carmack pwns all", I think that's basically wrong. So only id could have ever went "hey, you know those games where you run around on platforms shooting things? How about if you could play it through his eyes!"? Sure, maybe it would have happened a little later, but I doubt that it wouldn't have ever happened...

Skrot
10-22-04, 07:51 PM
Carmack has more talent and knowledge, however, Tim Sweeney is more dedicated as of late, because Carmack is retiring :(So because he's probably leaving after the next engine or two, he isn't as dedicated to making the next great engine? Hmmm... so what was he talking about that he was certain that his next engine could be used to render graphics that are in many respects as good as Pixar's stuff? I suppose someone who doesn't really care about his work could achieve that.

Skrot
10-22-04, 08:52 PM
Hah! *cough* http://www.armadilloaerospace.com/n.x/Armadillo/Home

SH64
10-22-04, 09:20 PM
Carmack is God.

That is all.

^

Subtestube
10-23-04, 06:02 AM
Right... so my opinion on the Crytek guys and their lovely engine, which is a very nice engine. I think that the Cry engine is exemplary in doing reasonably well what a lot of other people had done before them. Everything in the Cry engine had been done in video games before - just not as well or with everything else that was in the Cry engine [to my knowledge]. The only thing I can possibly think of that might have been new was the long draw distance detail scaling, but that's basically common sense LOD anyhow, so I don't see anything terribly new [in concept] there. It is an excellent engine though - in particular it's very versatile. It deals remarkably well both in and outdoors, and all of its features are very well integrated.

With all that said, I don't think they're as good as Carmack, but at the same time we haven't had a lot of comparison in terms of 'apples to apples'. I really do think that even on today's hardware, Doom 3 is a mighty achievement in terms of an engine that is both fantastically powerful, and scales really well. The Cry Engine loses so much going down to lower detail settings. Not that Doom 3 looks all that good on dated hardware, but it doesn't look all that bad either. Also, technically, unified lighting - which is the really amazing thing about the D3 engine, apparently works almost all the way down. I gather you can't run it on a 5200, or possibly an MX 440, but beyond that everything else can do the really hard stuff with the Doom 3 engine, without sacrificing absolutely everything else. Hell, even on low detail, D3 still looks mighty good.

My statement about apples to apples is basically this. We simply haven't seen how well the Doom 3 engine copes with large outdoor spaces - in the same way we hadn't with the Q3 engine until other games that used it came out. It may be that once viscious LOD scaling comes into the picture, the D3 engine will show some cracks. Also, we've not seen how the Doom 3 engine copes with many lower poly characters on screen rather than, say, 5 or 6 very detailed ones. All of these things will end up defining how good Carmack's bid with this gen of engines really is. As I say, the Far Cry engine is versatile, but it doesn't even come close to the D3 engine in what we've seen the D3 engine do.

So, even with Far Cry included, my vote stays with Mr C. His work in bringing practical, robust, and remarkably fast shadow volumes to the public (which are harder than you might think - a lot of things can go wrong - I know, I've coded them before), is just amazing. Doom 3 is a real step up in pretty much everything it does. Not only that, it does it on old hardware if it needs to. The only problem is, we haven't seen it do anything else. Yet. I suspect it's really going to get to show its power in the next year or so with D3 based games.

In the end my current praise for Carmack comes down to this:
At every generation of game that he's had an engine in, he's completely raised the bar on hardware no-one knew could do it.
Commander Keen was amazing when it came out.
Doom was ridiculous for what it did.
Quake was revolutionary.
Quake 2's introduction of coloured lighting added a LOT. And it was FAST on old machines.
Quake 3 STILL LOOKS GOOD.
Doom 3 as an engine is ahead of anything else currently available.

Still, the addition of HDR to Far Cry could change things a little. I guess we'll have to wait and see.

[Note: The Source Engine is cool, but I maintain that it isn't as cool as the Doom 3 one. That is all on that note.]

Subtestube
10-23-04, 06:11 AM
Yep, it crashed. The X prize has been won already anyhow. Carmack's stickin' with it though!

Subtestube
10-23-04, 06:29 AM
No... hang on, I'll find the official site... http://www.xprize.org/

It was won by Spaceshipone. Sorry about this, I realise it has nothing to do with graphics engines. Oh well...

Marcos
10-23-04, 06:30 AM
I hear that Tim Sweeney is a party animal and a knockout with the ladies.

Skrot
10-23-04, 06:32 AM
Yeah it crashed. I don't think that makes it much less of an achievement.