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vampireuk
11-27-04, 05:48 PM
Sat, Nov 27, 2004
By Alastair Macdonald

NEAR ISKANDARIYA, Iraq (Reuters) - Twenty months after toppling Saddam Hussein, U.S. troops still battling his followers in the heart of Iraq's old arms industry are hitting back with a new weapon -- ex-members of Saddam's special forces.

For five months, Iraqi police commandos have been based with U.S. Marines in charge of the region along the Euphrates river immediately south of Baghdad, which roadside bombs, ambushes and kidnaps have turned into a no-go area for outsiders and earned it the melodramatic description "triangle of death."

The performance of these police is a critical test of the ability of U.S. forces to hand security over to Iraqis in order to meet their goal of withdrawing while leaving Iraq stable. U.S. officers in the area say they are increasingly optimistic.

"The hardest fighters we have are the former special forces from Saddam's days," Colonel Ron Johnson, commander of the 24th Marine Expeditionary Unit, told reporters late on Friday.

Praising their local knowledge and fighting skills, Johnson singled out one man who fought against him at Nassiriya, the hardest battle of last year's brief war against Saddam's army.

"If I could have an Iraqi security force guy who's honest, reliable and dependable, it's worth five Marines," he said.

"They're aggressive, they're tough," said Captain Tad Douglas after a raid in the town of Latifiya on Saturday in which the bulk of his force was an Iraqi police "SWAT team."

"Ninety-five percent of our intelligence is from the SWAT," he said of the local knowledge that saw nine people detained.

"We have been...living with them for five months. We've put a lot of time into working with them."

U.S. raids to capture or kill insurgents are now mounted almost exclusively alongside commandos from the Ministry of Interior and a SWAT team from the provincial capital Hilla.

"Our goal since September has been never to go anywhere on our own," said intelligence officer Major Clint Nussbaum. "This is police work, not finding a tank battalion in the desert."

IRAQI PRESENCE This week, Johnson has stepped up raids against insurgents in an operation code-named Plymouth Rock, hoping to maintain pressure on Sunni insurgents in the aftermath of their rout at Falluja, just upstream of his area. More than 100 people have been detained in four days in night-time raids on their homes.

Of Johnson's 5,000-strong force in the region, which was once the heart of Saddam's arms industry and base of the Medina armored division of the elite Republican Guard, some 2,000 are Iraqi, the rest made up of Marines and 850 British soldiers.

At the Marine camp near Iskandariya, 30 miles south of Baghdad, the Iraqis are a clear presence, wearing the khaki jumpsuits of Marine scouts and almost ubiquitous black mustaches. Like special forces troops anywhere they are less than forthcoming about their work.

None were comfortable speaking with a reporter.

Iraqi forces in other regions have had mixed success. This month, thousands of police in the northern city of Mosul fled or changed sides when Sunni Muslim insurgents took charge.

Johnson acknowledges the loyalties of some Iraqis in his force may be divided but says they "want to be on the winning side" and is confident that, in time, U.S.-led troops will end what he sees as limited and decentralized violence by at most a few thousand disgruntled Saddam supporters and local bandits.

Iraqi police here have stuck to their posts despite killings of comrades in bomb attacks and murders of off-duty officers: "They don't cut and run, despite their losses," Johnson said.

Citing intelligence that he says shows broad support for democracy, Johnson forecast local turnout of 45 percent or more at an election due on Jan. 30 -- despite probable violence.

Clearly exasperated by the "triangle of death" tag, he said: "I'm getting more optimistic every day."

Source (http://story.news.yahoo.com/news?tmpl=story&cid=574&ncid=721&e=1&u=/nm/20041127/wl_nm/iraq_swat_dc)
http://www.vampireuk.pwp.blueyonder.co.uk/m1014_5.jpg

bknblk
11-27-04, 08:46 PM
The fact remains that under all the garb, they are still Arab fighters. Useful in this application, but I wouldn't want them defending any high-value targets. Dumbphil is likely a superior soldier when compared to virtually any Arab soldier. History has shown them time and again to be strategically inept as well as lacking two essential ingredients needed for effective combat. (pb)

Drumphil
11-28-04, 07:33 AM
Dumbphil

I think you owe a third grader somewhere royalties for stealing his joke.

My main concern with this isn't the capabilities of these soldiers (I'm sure they'd tear you a new one if you asked nicely bknblk), but who they are... Aren't these the guys who are responsible for carrying out most of the terrible stuff we were shown as justification for invading in the first place? (if not, who was?)

bknblk
11-28-04, 02:54 PM
I think you owe a third grader somewhere royalties for stealing his joke.

My main concern with this isn't the capabilities of these soldiers (I'm sure they'd tear you a new one if you asked nicely bknblk), but who they are... Aren't these the guys who are responsible for carrying out most of the terrible stuff we were shown as justification for invading in the first place? (if not, who was?)


dumb,

You better ask someone. Take the best soldier out of their lot and he will be washing my drawers and socks by noon. I am quite comfortable in the knowledge that I can outshoot and best anyone of them in a hand to hand environment. You know way too little about me to offer conjecture wrt my abilities in this area. I do not make my living in the same fashion as you. I still believe that we should keep these bozos around for informational reasons.

nVidi0t
11-28-04, 03:47 PM
dumb,

You better ask someone. Take the best soldier out of their lot and he will be washing my drawers and socks by noon. I am quite comfortable in the knowledge that I can outshoot and best anyone of them in a hand to hand environment. You know way too little about me to offer conjecture wrt my abilities in this area. I do not make my living in the same fashion as you. I still believe that we should keep these bozos around for informational reasons.

LMAO!!!!

Talk **** much?

vampireuk
11-28-04, 03:51 PM
LMAO!!!!

Talk **** much?

You don't know the man do you? So don't jump to conclusions about him. :thumbsup:

nVidi0t
11-28-04, 04:00 PM
Vamp, frankly I dont care if you know him, and if he is ex SAS or whatever. The fact remains that he is laughably arrogant.

Drumphil
11-28-04, 05:19 PM
Take the best soldier out of their lot and he will be washing my drawers and socks by noon. I am quite comfortable in the knowledge that I can outshoot and best anyone of them in a hand to hand environment.

real ex SAS people usually don't feel the need to shoot their mouth off about it. and if you aint ex SAS, these guys would tear you a new one.

You know way too little about me to offer conjecture wrt my abilities in this area. I do not make my living in the same fashion as you.

I conjecture that you aren't bright enough to be any special sort of fighter. lemme guess, you're a hardcore disco bouncer? :)

vampireuk
11-28-04, 06:51 PM
real ex SAS people usually don't feel the need to shoot their mouth off about it. and if you aint ex SAS, these guys would tear you a new one.

Where did he say he was ex SAS? When was the last time you saw a American in a SAS unit?

Vamp, frankly I dont care if you know him, and if he is ex SAS or whatever. The fact remains that he is laughably arrogant.

Ever thought maybe he has earned the right to be arrogant?

real ex SAS people usually don't feel the need to shoot their mouth off about it. and if you aint ex SAS, these guys would tear you a new one.

Obviously you know very little about Military training standards, any regular infantry soldier from the US or UK can most likely outperform those guys. Just because they have the word "commando" in their name does not mean they are elite soldiers. Read the article, they are more of a police force.

I conjecture that you aren't bright enough to be any special sort of fighter.

And what do you know about elite infantry units? Do you think every member of the Rangers or Royal Marine Commandos has a Phd? I'm not saying he is ex SF and neither is he, so why try jump to conclusions about something you do not understand?

Also for the record any former member of a Special Forces unit has every right to be as arrogant as he likes.

bknblk
11-28-04, 07:54 PM
nVidi0t,

I am sorry that you found my response to dumbphil arrogant. Taken independently, or in a vacuum, it certainly does contain an abundance of ****iness. I am typically not as outspoken on these matters, but the post was in response to dumb's implication that these were real fighting men. I am quite confident, but I did sound a bit of an ass in that post. Anyway, no harm done.


Dumb,

You have it exactly right. I am not SAS, nor am I affiliated with any standing army today. This does not mean I am like you; stupid, fat, and lazy. Your command of the language is horrid at best and you can not, or will not accept my standing challenge to debate on the subject of your choice, pro or con, moderated by any three members of the community that you find acceptable. You are a sad little man and deserve the full measure of my pity.

Sazar
11-28-04, 07:59 PM
(popcorn)

replace drumphill with 1stflight and a pattern emerges regarding the posts concerning drump...

(popcorn)

bknblk
11-28-04, 08:04 PM
(popcorn)

replace drumphill with 1stflight and a pattern emerges regarding the posts concerning drump...

(popcorn)

To do so would be doing 1st a disservice. You do have a point in terms of their relative intellectual prowess, however.

saturnotaku
11-28-04, 08:17 PM
To do so would be doing 1st a disservice. You do have a point in terms of their relative intellectual prowess, however.

:udawg:

Sazar
11-28-04, 08:29 PM
To do so would be doing 1st a disservice. You do have a point in terms of their relative intellectual prowess, however.

yes... as well as general posting style...

and the general goodwill and love it brings out in you :D

its quite uncanny init :cool:

bknblk
11-28-04, 08:36 PM
yes... as well as general posting style...

and the general goodwill and love it brings out in you :D

its quite uncanny init :cool:

I suppose it is a good thing that I do not earn my living working with the educationally handicapped then, isn't it? It would appear that I simply lack the necessary patience.

The main difference is that 1st is not anti-America in everything he espoused, just anti-Israel.

MikeC
11-28-04, 08:41 PM
Settle down everyone, Santa Claus can see you:)

Yonkers
11-28-04, 09:19 PM
Settle down everyone, Santa Claus can see you:)

Even in the shower?.... You perv.

Rakeesh
11-28-04, 09:27 PM
My main concern with this isn't the capabilities of these soldiers (I'm sure they'd tear you a new one if you asked nicely bknblk), but who they are... Aren't these the guys who are responsible for carrying out most of the terrible stuff we were shown as justification for invading in the first place? (if not, who was?)

Alright, now you've just demonstrated your complete lack of understanding of a wartime situation. This is an absolute all time low for you (come to think of it you reach them often.) I suggest you return to the land of pacifist karma from whence you came.

saturnotaku
11-28-04, 10:21 PM
Alpha, I must say that I absolutely adore your sig. :rofl

evilchris
11-28-04, 11:06 PM
real ex SAS people usually don't feel the need to shoot their mouth off about it.

I know plenty of real Navy Seals that shoot their mouth off about it constantly. It's well earned arrogance and pride. You don't know ANY soldiers Dumphil.

nVidi0t
11-28-04, 11:27 PM
nVidi0t,

I am sorry that you found my response to dumbphil arrogant. Taken independently, or in a vacuum, it certainly does contain an abundance of ****iness. I am typically not as outspoken on these matters, but the post was in response to dumb's implication that these were real fighting men. I am quite confident, but I did sound a bit of an ass in that post. Anyway, no harm done.


Dumb,

You have it exactly right. I am not SAS, nor am I affiliated with any standing army today. This does not mean I am like you; stupid, fat, and lazy. Your command of the language is horrid at best and you can not, or will not accept my standing challenge to debate on the subject of your choice, pro or con, moderated by any three members of the community that you find acceptable. You are a sad little man and deserve the full measure of my pity.

Hey, no worries :)

Yonkers
11-29-04, 12:37 AM
real ex SAS people usually don't feel the need to shoot their mouth off about it. and if you aint ex SAS, these guys would tear you a new one.



I conjecture that you aren't bright enough to be any special sort of fighter. lemme guess, you're a hardcore disco bouncer? :)

Word to the wise Drum, you are sounding silly right now. I would not challenge BK's skill or his training in fighting. ;)

evilchris
11-29-04, 12:46 AM
"right now" ???

sytaylor
11-29-04, 02:48 AM
"right now" ???

Is a very good song by KoRn

vampireuk
11-29-04, 03:57 AM
Settle down everyone, Santa Claus can see you:)

So he knows what I got up to with Gib? :cry: