R350 with GDDR-3 by spring - what do you think?

[suburbanguy]

as of right now it's just a rumor, but what do you guys think the chances are that ATI will have a R350 ready on .13u using GDDR-3
and possibly a 2nd TMU per pipeline by the springtime to counter the NV30/GeForceFX ?

being purely speculative, I'd guess they'll match NV30/GeForceFX rendering features with more advanced PS/VS, while blowing it of the water in performance with its 256-bit bus (that R300 already has) combined with the new GDDR-3 memory and HZ4.

if ATI's plan is anything like I'm speculating on, R350 could be to R300 what the GF2GTS was to the original GeForce. :D
[/ATI fan mode off]

[thcdru2k]

i wouldn't be suprised at all..but its also been rumored nvidia is planning to release the nv35 around that time to combat the r350.

[suburbanguy]

possible but I highly doubt Nvidia will have NV35 in the spring, since NV30 is just going to be released in Jan-Feb, with volume not starting until Feb-March. The soonest I'd expect NV35 would be the fall. If however Nvidia keeps going at its current pace, NV35 might not arrive until early 2004 or spring 2004.

[suburbanguy]

that said, I would have liked nothing more than to see R350 go head to head with the NV35 next spring, if NV30 and R300 had both launched this fall.

[thcdru2k]

i don't think it will go that far back..they hit a roadblock because they made a gutsy to move to go with the new .13 micron process instead of the already ironed out .15 micron process that ati went with. the nv35 will not have those manufacturing problems.

[StealthHawk]

i'm not too sure if R350 will really be .13 or not. it seems more likely that ATI will release a simple upgrade of R300 that has extended PS/VS with faster memory and a higher clock speed.

what i'm getting at is that ATI probably won't release a .13 product this Spring, but i guess we'll see. unless R350 was never intended to be .13, i don't think we'll see it this Spring either.

[Bigus Dickus]

Expect NV35 around next Christmas.

I haven't really decided whether I actually think ATi will release an architecturally enhanced core for higher performance in the spring, or just a DDR-II equipped core clock bumped R300. I think we'll see something, but I'm not really sure what.

My first instinct is just DDR-II and clock increases, with a .13u version being the RV350 aimed at the mainstream, with enhancements made more for cost than for speed. Similar to the R200 - RV250 transition. If that's the case, then it would debut next fall alongside the R400. The only problem there is that the R400 might be bound to DX10, which could push it into early 2004, in which case ATi would need a true high performance refresh around summer next year.

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by Bigus Dickus
Expect NV35 around next Christmas.

I haven't really decided whether I actually think ATi will release an architecturally enhanced core for higher performance in the spring, or just a DDR-II equipped core clock bumped R300. I think we'll see something, but I'm not really sure what.

My first instinct is just DDR-II and clock increases, with a .13u version being the RV350 aimed at the mainstream, with enhancements made more for cost than for speed. Similar to the R200 - RV250 transition. If that's the case, then it would debut next fall alongside the R400. The only problem there is that the R400 might be bound to DX10, which could push it into early 2004, in which case ATi would need a true high performance refresh around summer next year.

Rumours I've heard call for an RV350, but no R350

[MuFu]

Originally posted by suburbanguy
as of right now it's just a rumor, but what do you guys think the chances are that ATI will have a R350 ready on .13u using GDDR-3
and possibly a 2nd TMU per pipeline by the springtime to counter the NV30/GeForceFX ?

Slim-to-none. GDDR3 is way off.

I'd agree with what has been said about the possiblity of an R300 on steroids, possibly with DDR-II (they may need to switch to SSTL_18/DDR-II to overcome signal integrity issues at 325MHz+ on the current bus). Again, I haven't heard anything about R350, rather RV350, which is definitely being readied right now.

MuFu.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Bigus Dickus
Expect NV35 around next Christmas.

I haven't really decided whether I actually think ATi will release an architecturally enhanced core for higher performance in the spring, or just a DDR-II equipped core clock bumped R300. I think we'll see something, but I'm not really sure what.

My first instinct is just DDR-II and clock increases, with a .13u version being the RV350 aimed at the mainstream, with enhancements made more for cost than for speed. Similar to the R200 - RV250 transition. If that's the case, then it would debut next fall alongside the R400. The only problem there is that the R400 might be bound to DX10, which could push it into early 2004, in which case ATi would need a true high performance refresh around summer next year.

Christmas? you actually think that if ATI launches R400 next year in Fall nvidia will launch NV35 during Christmas(as compared to Fall)?

nvidia sat on their asses before because they were always on par or ahead of ATI. they don't have that luxury now. well, i suppose we shall see, but i doubt NV30 has the power to stand up to R400, or even perhaps what ATI releases next. i think R400 will be to NV30 what R9700 was to GF4. no contest.

i also don't think that nvidia would be too happy letting that happen again.

[suburbanguy]

From the last page of Firingsquad.com's GeForce FX preview:
http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/gffx/page6.asp

One thing is for sure, GeForce FX certainly looks more impressive than RADEON 9700 PRO on paper, but the question remains, when will NVIDIA deliver? By the time GeForce FX hits store shelves, ATI will likely be putting the finishing touches on its follow-up to RADEON 9700, codenamed R350. If that's the case, GeForce FX's reign on the throne may be short-lived."

read the full article from the beginning:
http://firingsquad.gamers.com/hardware/gffx/

[Bigus Dickus]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
Christmas? you actually think that if ATI launches R400 next year in Fall nvidia will launch NV35 during Christmas(as compared to Fall)?

NV30 is late as far as what people's expectations were (and perhaps nVidia's as well), but it is completely consistent with their product launches over the past three years. 11 months seems to be fairly consistent between core changes, NV15, NV20, NV25, NV30. I would expect, based on that, for the NV35 to be a late 2003 part.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Bigus Dickus
NV30 is late as far as what people's expectations were (and perhaps nVidia's as well), but it is completely consistent with their product launches over the past three years. 11 months seems to be fairly consistent between core changes, NV15, NV20, NV25, NV30. I would expect, based on that, for the NV35 to be a late 2003 part.

so now that ATI may be accelerating their product cycles you don't think nvidia will do that either in order to counteract them. i find that highly unplausible, unless whatever ATI puts out to combat NV30 isn't very impressive(in comparison). otherwise nvidia will now be the ones playing catch up, and that's something i doubt the perceived market leader would let happen.

but i guess we'll see in the coming months how ATI responds.

[Megatron]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
i'm not too sure if R350 will really be .13 or not. it seems more likely that ATI will release a simple upgrade of R300 that has extended PS/VS with faster memory and a higher clock speed.

I think you may be right about that. I remember them saying they believed there was still headroom left in the .15 process over and above what they achieved with the 9700.
I think theyll use faster memory, some tweaks, and the .15 process for the refresh.

Hehe..looking at the GF FX Ultra anyway..the move to .13 doesnt seem like such a big gain. Heck the board is still too long, Its generating enough heat to need a whopping heat pipe thing, thus expanding the thickness of the cards, and it draws more system power than a 9700 (5v vs 3.3v), so who knows how much the .13 matters yet.

[pelly]

The "whopping heat pipe thing" will be available on the "Ultra" versions of the GeForce FX...The more budget-oriented cards will use more conventional cooling without a problem...

:D

[|JuiceZ|]

Seeing as to how long the gffx launch was delayed I'm sure it will have some impact on nv35 but I'm not quite sure how much. History tells me that nvidia will have a couple flavors of their high end (ultra) nv30 product to combat Ati's spring '03 product launch. We'll just have to wait and see, however I do smell a new driver release around the corner though :D

[Megatron]

Originally posted by pelly
The "whopping heat pipe thing" will be available on the "Ultra" versions of the GeForce FX...The more budget-oriented cards will use more conventional cooling without a problem...

:D

Oh yes , of that i am aware:

Hehe..looking at the GF FX Ultra anyway..the move to .13 doesnt seem like such a big gain. Heck the board is still too long, Its generating enough heat to need a whopping heat pipe thing....

;) :D

I guess the question would be now...would the "Budget" variants be enough to displace the 9700?

[nin_fragile14]

I'm betting ATI will launch the R350 shortly after the GeforceFX is released. It'll probably be on a .15 die, with a bumped up core (they could probably squeeze at least 375 out of it) and DDR-II memory running around 1 ghz on a 256-bit bus. Given the massive memory bandwidth that will have, it'll probably outperform the GeforceFX.

ATI will probably release a .13 part in the fall of 2003, probably clocked at higher than 500 mhz, with new DirectX support.

[Bigus Dickus]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
so now that ATI may be accelerating their product cycles you don't think nvidia will do that either in order to counteract them.

I don't see that ATi is accelerating their product cycles either. They have been pretty consistent over the past three years in releasing a completely new architecture about once a year.

It's just that nVidia has been doing the same once ever ~22 months, and that disparity has finally caught up with them. Perhaps nV will get back to their product launch philosophy of five years ago. I surely hope so, because if they don't we'll see a R400 in the fall competing against the NV30 Ultra, or the NV35 if they push the schedule just a bit. I don't want that to happen, because then ATi would have too much of a lead, become complacent, and raise prices too high.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Bigus Dickus
I don't see that ATi is accelerating their product cycles either. They have been pretty consistent over the past three years in releasing a completely new architecture about once a year.

yes, but people are speculating that R350 will be ATI's next high end product, with R400 following in the Fall.

as you know, the R9000 was the RV250 or whatnot, which obviously was not a highend product. also, there was no high end product that i remember between the R100(original Radeon) and the R200. i believe the Radeon7500 was released around the same time as the R8500.

which either means one of two things. people are wrong about what and when ATI will release new cards, or ATI is accelerating its product schedule.

[Bigus Dickus]

I'm not convinced that there really will be a R350. Possibly a DDR-II equipped clock bumped part in early spring, but I'm finding a true upgraded core hard to swallow.

Following their previous launch patterns, we would expect the RV350 (.13u) and R400 (.13u) to be launched together (or close, like the RV250/R300) late summer - early fall.

The only problem I have with that is ATi has been consistent in basing new cores on new DX generations. I'm not so sure we will see DX10 until early/mid 2004. Though ATi has released cores before the DX version was released, that might be a bit of a stretch. If so, then either the R400 will be a super-DX9 part, or will be delayed from ATi's typical launch dates, with an R350 showing up in the summer 2003 to fill the gap.

Right now, I just don't know which way to lean on this one... could go either way.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Bigus Dickus
The only problem I have with that is ATi has been consistent in basing new cores on new DX generations. I'm not so sure we will see DX10 until early/mid 2004. Though ATi has released cores before the DX version was released, that might be a bit of a stretch. If so, then either the R400 will be a super-DX9 part, or will be delayed from ATi's typical launch dates, with an R350 showing up in the summer 2003 to fill the gap.

what makes you think we will see DX10 in the 1H 04? has Microsoft given any indication of when they plan on releasing it?

i was originally under the impression that what was to be DX10 would instead be incorporated as DX9.1. but then, DX9 is rumored to be "beyond DX9" as well, making me think that maybe there will be no DX9.1, and all its features have instead be implemented into DX9, thus delaying it so much.

of course the latter part is utter speculation by me, with no source indicating that it is what's really going on. after all, new DX releases always seem to be delayed.

[thcdru2k]

interesting..skip the r350 and go straight to the r400. i think that would be a much wiser move money wise..

[Bigus Dickus]

Originally posted by StealthHawk
what makes you think we will see DX10 in the 1H 04? has Microsoft given any indication of when they plan on releasing it

Maybe I should have rephrased. I don't think we'll see DX10 until at least 1H 04. AFAIK, DX10 is locked to the launch of Longhorn or whatever M$'s new OS is called. People aren't expecting that next year are they?

Perhaps I'm wrong. Just seems like main DX version have been more than a year apart... much more in some cases.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by Bigus Dickus
Maybe I should have rephrased. I don't think we'll see DX10 until at least 1H 04. AFAIK, DX10 is locked to the launch of Longhorn or whatever M$'s new OS is called. People aren't expecting that next year are they?

Perhaps I'm wrong. Just seems like main DX version have been more than a year apart... much more in some cases.

no, Longhorn seems to have been pushed back to 2005. at least, that is what MS execs are calling it. although i think the fiscal period of '05 starts at the end of '04, so maybe. but either way, i doubt it will be early 04, and MS does have a habit of delaying Windows releases or dropping features from them to get them out. but that's a different discussion entirely.