Are you impressed or unimpressed by GeForce FX?

[Bigus Dickus]

Well, was it all you thought it would be? Here's what looks like the basics:

8 x 1
High core speed
128 bit memory bus
DDR-II at up to 1 GHz
1 powerful vertex shader

Things of note: color compression on the framebuffer, which the R300 does in AA modes; fast Z clear, which the R300 does, 8x AA in OGL, "rip-mapping" aniso option like ATi, insane pixel fill rate, lower raw bandwidth than R300.

From the initial previews and comments from different sites, this is what looks likely as far as speeds and pricing:

Core:
~500MHz core for a ~$500 card
~400MHz core for a ~$400 card

Memory probably the same:
~1000MHz memory for a ~$500 card
~800MHz memory for a ~$400 card

Looks like it has an external power connector, and will likely have the same stringent power supply requirements as the R300.

Vertex shading power is just a bit more than the R300 at 500Mhz, so it should be ~10% faster in vertex shading synthetic benchmarks. Pixel shaders should be quite a bit faster given the higher clockspeed, so it could be up to 50% faster in synthetic pixel shading benchmarks.

It will be as CPU limited as the R300 without IQ enhancements set high. Due to limited memory bandwidth, max FSAA + AF will probably not be much faster than the R300, if at all.

The biggest advantage will be in games making heavy use of pixel shaders, possibly including Doom3, and any other game one to two years from now. 30% to 50% advantages there seems perfectly reasonable.

So, is it all you thought it would be?

[Uttar]

It's a fairly impressive GPU.

IMO, the following is amazing:
- 500Mhz core/memory ( of course :) )
- Vertex engine system. It's a really interesting idea.
- FX Flow. It sounds like some type of alien tech :) Better keep the window open or we'll all die REAL fast!

Intellisample is pretty much on par with my expectations.
I hoped for a new AA system, but it sounds like that ain't for this core. Oh well, it's still a good system they've got there!

I was really looking foward to 8x2 however. But if 125 million transistors would be required for this, a LOT more would be required with 2 TMU/pipeline! Time to introduce FX Flow *grins*


Uttar

[Bigus Dickus]

The AA is especially dissapointing to me. No new AA technologies, and, in fact, they are still using the old ordered grid sampling patterns for 8X AA.

The AA is essentially the same as the GF4, nothing new except for 6Xs and 8X. No RGMS across the board (like the R300), no programmable sampling patterns, nothing.

The R300's 4X RGMS should be essentially the visual equivalent of the NV30's 8X OGMS. :(

And still stuck at 8X AF? :( I'm glad they at least added the option of a performance algorithm to the mix.

I was really hoping for a true R300 killer, pressing the field foward, but instead we get the R300 with higher core clock and slower memory. Hardly exciting.

[ragejg]

what's the concept behin the "vertex engine?" just number based programmability? Sorry I haven't read up as much as eveyone else on the nv30 cuz I'm busy as hell and still excited by my present setup.

Uttar, do you think the board size will be smaller? I've seen cards shrink over the course of development and I do hear quite a few people comment on the size, so I'm wondering what your take on that is...


-r-a-g-e-j-g-

[Bigus Dickus]

The vertex engine is a single parallel unit similar to the 3dLabs P10 core, using numerous parallel computational blocks in one vertex unit for processing power, instead of multiple parallel less powerful vertex engines.

It seems a bit odd to me, since both ways are putting logic elements in parallel, just that in one case you call all the elements "one engine" and in another case you split them into four "parallel engines."

I suppose there are other pieces of the vertex engine that are shared in the NV30 design, but duplicated in each of the R300's vertex units.

About the size of the board... it looks big. Very similar to the GF4 boards in size. Why does it take them such a large PCB??

[tieros]

Well, I haven't seen one yet, or even videos from one, so I guess I'm still re-pressed (but not de-pressed) :)

I still want to hear an explanation for the 1000+ pins, whether or not the molex connector will be needed for AGP 3.x mobos, and if the mem clock and core clocks are locked in sync.

[TheFrnchTickler]

Definitely unimpressed.

ATi slapped them down in a major way this round.

Here's how: 256bit memory interface. I don't care what nVidia says, I guarantee they're holding their ribs in pain after that one. Next up, ATi's rotated grid AA technique is greatly superior to what the Geforce4 was offering. I know, I switched from Geforce4 to 9700.

Lastly is the fact that ATi got the 9700 out the door 6 months before nVidia SAYS they're going to be able to get their part out.

I'm not saying nVidia isn't going to come back in 2003 and convincingly wrest the crown back from ATi, but for now, ATi is the big dog on the block, and it's only more obvious now.

[DaveW]

I was expecting better FSAA. "say goodbye to jaggies for good" ... I don't think so. 4XS on the GF4 Ti was too slow to be practical. Same probably applies for 6XS on this board. It may only work in Direct 3D too. I was hoping for some intelligent anti-aliasing method like that on the Parhelia. Its obviously an area that they really didn't spend much time working on.... how much are you betting that the old S3TC bug is still present?

The adaptive AF sounds like a cool idea, maybe we can finally wack the AF up without killing the frame-rate. The 128 bit color remains to be seen. I suppose we will see comparison screenshots soon enough. This kind of precision is probably a load on the memory, which is why the card has color compression. There is no such thing as a lossless 4:1 compression algorithm though.

[DSC]

Not too impressed, if it had 256bit memory bus and 2 TMUs per pipeline, then it would have been the R300 killer and compete with R350 easily, with the refresh (NV34/35?) killing R350.

[jbirney]

Well I am not overly impressed. It has some advantages over the R300 and I am happy for that. I really like the AF switch (let the user decide speed vrs quality AF). I think its great that they are pushing ahead with the PS2.0+ features. However this reminds me a lot of the Intial GF3 and 8500 release with now the tables turned in some cases. In most cases the advanced PS/VS features will not be used in the cards lifetime to any usefull degree (read a game that really uses the feature). The fact that it has no reall advances in AA over the GF4 is somewhat of a let down. And the fact that its really late also makes the speed of it not so impressive as I would hope a card thats 4 months late is faster.

[Uttar]

nVidia declined to provide more details about the actual sample patterns. Tamasi and Kirk would only say that the sample positions and patterns have changed, and that they are non-rectangular

http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,3973,710345,00.asp

Maybe it isn't as random as ATI's solution, but it sure seems better than the GF4 AA system!

I'd bet the color compression adds at least 75% effective bandwidth even in not-so-good cases. The +300% figure, however, seems ridiculous. Sure, you can get that. With a screen filled with the exact same color everywhere :P

We'll see how good it truly is in a few weeks I guess :)


Uttar

[Fotis]

I really don't know!!I have mixed feallings about gf fx.
500/500 clocks sounds great but fsaa just disapointed me.
I wonder waht the price will be.That board looks expensive to make.If it goes for 500$ its just not for me!!!:(

[Lezmaka]

I put unimpressed because the option I wanted wasn't an option.

Unimpressed until I get more info about AA, AF, other enhancements and definately real benchmarks. Anyone who believes that it will be 25-50% faster across the board is a complete moron. It could be 25-50% faster in some situations (hopefully a lot of them) but unless they have something that can make the CPU less of a bottleneck, it's just not gonna happen.

Not sure if I like the cooling system, but I'll wait to see if that is what wil be on retail cards.

But I do like them giving us a choice for AF. I do a little programming for fun, and I like to give users choices because I know not everyone wants to have to do something the way I think they should.

[Megatron]

Originally posted by jbirney
And the fact that its really late also makes the speed of it not so impressive as I would hope a card thats 4 months late is faster.

I feel the same way. While the speed is impressive...it pretty much was a given that it had to be after all the delay.

Now the 9700 has been out since August..and If the GF FX isnt slated to hit mass market till Feb...is this sufficient time for ATI to have been working on something comperable to offer and stay just ahead?(some kind of DDR2 Radeon 9700 or something?)

Or will DDr2 on the R300 not be enough to overcome the projected 25%+ lead the GF FX is supposed to bring?


There are things that strike me as a letdown on this board so far though.
1) being another footlong PCB, and 2) the fact that the product appears to be so thick with that cooler that it will block a PCI slot.
(I had thought that going .13 meant less heat..kind of making it a real surprise to see a cooler like that being necessary, but hell Im no engineer)

[sancheuz]

who is ATI? I dont know of such a company.... :) Bring it on nvidia........woohooo. I'm so glad i saved my money and didnt rush to go buy a 9700. Has anybody seen the nvidia screenshots of the tech demos that will be available with the nv30, i mean geforce fx? Did you see the woman and the rusty truck. AWESOME?!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[Megatron]

Yeah those demos look very nice indeed.

I really like the Pixies..errr...ummm...Antennae:D

[DaveW]

I don't think the pictures of the cooler were of the final design. You can see where the copper is soldered etc. Its a picture of a prototype board. Final board will probably have a thinner profile.

[nutball]

Oyycchh. You boys need to use a Commodore Pet for a while.

Come on people, wake up and smell the mustard!!!

Read the Extremetech article, and understand what it's saying.

These latest two GPUs (I mean R300 and NV30) are the transition from the days of the simple to the days of the not-so-simple. NV30 more than R300.

If you've ever programmed 8-bit microprocessor machine code for a single-tasking single-user computer, you'll understand what I mean.

[Megatron]

Originally posted by DaveW
I don't think the pictures of the cooler were of the final design. You can see where the copper is soldered etc. Its a picture of a prototype board. Final board will probably have a thinner profile.

Could be true.

The firing squad article however makes it sound as if this will be the final design for the high end card(Ultras)..theyve even given the cooler a PR Catchphrase name..FX Flow..lol


From their article:
"In order to extract the maximum performance from the .13 micron, copper interconnect, flip-chip design of the GeForce FX, NVIDIA has yet again developed a custom cooling system for use on their premium boards. The FX Flow system is standard on all GeForce FX “Ultra” products, and guarantees that the enthusiast or die-hard gamer who is interested in the flagship version of the GeForce FX will not need to worry about compromises to the stability and overclockability of the product."

[DrAkO]

Bah...

Impress or not ?

i'm not sure, i'll be wait to see benchmark to check the real performance of the GPU...

But, i'm afraid, afraid because ATI will work on a r350 GPU...probably with 256 bits DDR-II...

nVIDIA will be the first, but how for long ?

But i'll be wait for benchmark to evaluate the card...

[Nv40]

i really DOnt care about Antialiasing 4x ,8x or 50,000x ..
i really expect that NVdia forget about that .. and Focuse their Job
on better things like more Performance or better Anisotropic filterings techniques or new Unknown filtering techniques or
special effects..

maybe im the only one who thinks like that , but
for me Antialiasing is only usefull for very CLose shots
for people that dont play at 1600x1200 and or play Flight Simulations games ,where Jaggies are more noticeable in Big Outdoors ..

i have seen my friends quake3 in 6x antialiasing in 1600x1200 and it was hardly noticeable in gameplay versus my Geforce4 at 1600 with no AA .. what i would like is a bigger quality monitor
to play at 1900 x 1600 or better resolutions ..
i have said before higher resolutions not only remove the jaggies
but give you more pixels and colors in your screen .


Forget about the Antialiasing hype of "greater"
ritchness and clarity BS!
lets move to games with More Polys and better colors
and more FLuids effects .. :)

and Nope ,not impressed with the Nv30 estimated peformance
of 20%-30% over the radeon9700pro . While is not
Bad , is not impressive ,even when it comes six months later .
im waiting for the second revision NV35 or maybe R350 .

i think there is no excuse possible for Nvidia ,for not delivering
or at least have ready for tapeout ,something like an NV30 in .15 process with 80-100 million transistors. in this year ..
just in case ATI direcx9 product were much faster than Geforce4.
because many sources have already told that the Nv30 samples
were available early this year ..

yes .. TMSC .13 problems delayed the Nv30 "not Nvidia Fault"
but that doesnt explain why their NV28 its "exactly" the geforce4
with agp8x ,with no design changes or better performance.

While i think this is Far from the end for Nvidia ,they only missed a round cycle ,and believe that the Nv30 will be a great
product next year. it is obvious that Nvidia have made
the Biggest mistake any company can do in the Business world,
to underestimate your competition .

i have read many times that expectations is the main reason of failures in any Industry . Far better is to be prepared and ready!for the worst possible case . ;)

again in the main topic ..
i think that the worst thing above Nv30 or even radeon9700pro
it its that developers wont be using Directx9 features at least
2 years from now. because Nvidia direcx9 demos looks damn good.

The good thing about Nv30 is that its extra features
are already supported in Main 3d animation packages like
XSI 3 ,3dmax5 thanks to Nvidia Cg .

Still there are many possibilities in the near Future ,
with nv30 ,r350 and probably and Nv35 in 2003 .
very hard to predict which company will be the leader.

a good year for gamers ... Who told is bad the competition :)

[volt]

I'm only impressed with the numbers, that's about it until I see a quality benchmark.

[Fotis]

Originally posted by volt
I'm only impressed with the numbers, that's about it until I see a quality benchmark.
Yes the numbers are great 500/500Mhz:D :D and 500$ price tag:( :(

Gf fx is going retail on february right?Isn't r350 a spring product?Hmmm,interesting!!!I wonder if ATI will announce r350 on february to spoil nvidia retail launch.Lol at this rate I'll be waiting to buy my next card forever.:D

[jbirney]

I'm so glad i saved my money and didnt rush to go buy a 9700.

Yea I am soo glad I did not wait to spend $500 in Feb2k3. For a mere $330 bucks I have been enjoying 16x12 gaming with x4 FSAA and 16x AF on for almost every game (except UT2003) since early September. Not only that but I have a fully DX9 card since then that has allowed me to do some basic programming.

See how silly we both sound? The NV30 is a nice card. However compared to the competition and for the price it really is ot that impressive...

[ChrisW]

The scary thing is that cooler. Some people think it's put there to satisfy overclockers. I fear it was put there because they had to seriously overclock the NV30 to beat the 9700. It's possible this card puts out massive amounts of heat and is near it's maximum overclocking rate. Just a thought.