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View Full Version : HL2 boat level crap framerate...


hypertek
12-10-04, 12:38 AM
like 10 fps, i should get more... what is that line that i can use to boost my framerate for geforce cards?

superklye
12-10-04, 12:55 AM
F10

oh, wait...this isn't CS:S...nevermind. :)

There should be a thread or two about it in here and/or in the driver forum.

hypertek
12-10-04, 12:58 AM
thanks, ill search

-=DVS=-
12-10-04, 01:13 AM
10FPS WTF you trying to play 1600x1200 with 8xAA and 16AF ? :eek2: , should be ~100.

Ruined
12-10-04, 01:19 AM
yeh my 6800gt is ultra smooth on that level, unless u r tryin 8xS AA or something heh

Vagrant Zero
12-10-04, 01:39 AM
My 6800GT sometimes crapped out during that level [16x12 reflect all 4xaa 16xaf]. Crap coding. For some reason HL2 water can sometimes cause NV40 cards to choke even though the game can chew straight through any other part of the game. There's no reasonable reason for it considering NV40s have no problem with Far Cry. Let's just say I think that 6 million ATI gave Valve was money well spent.

Toss3
12-10-04, 06:39 AM
I've got the same problem, hitting <20 at some parts of the level :-S this is sad when others are getting decent framerate here.. so maybe we have something in common with our setups? noticed that we at least both have an overclocked 2-2.6Ghz P4 CPU? at what frequensy is ur ddr running? also noticed that we both have a 350w psu, maybe this has something to do with it...:eek2:

rewt
12-10-04, 10:26 AM
My 5900 doesn't even play that slow. Uninstall your drivers and reinstall the 67.03. Then leave the settings alone!

Vagrant Zero
12-10-04, 12:25 PM
I've got the same problem, hitting <20 at some parts of the level :-S this is sad when others are getting decent framerate here.. so maybe we have something in common with our setups? noticed that we at least both have an overclocked 2-2.6Ghz P4 CPU? at what frequensy is ur ddr running? also noticed that we both have a 350w psu, maybe this has something to do with it...:eek2:

I've got a 480WPSU. Stock 320064, stock GT. It's not your system, it's Valve. I beat HL2 using the 67.20s. Might explain it. Haven't tried the 67.02s. I'm waiting for the 71.21s.

hypertek
12-11-04, 09:48 PM
wow.. I just uninstalled drivers (was running 70.90) then ran driver cleaner in safe mode, then installed extreme g 67.20 and it runs perfect now... muista been my lazy driver installs when i kept flashing my 6800 gt's bios and not properly cleaning em up.

TacT
12-11-04, 10:22 PM
wow.. I just uninstalled drivers (was running 70.90) then ran driver cleaner in safe mode, then installed extreme g 67.20 and it runs perfect now... muista been my lazy driver installs when i kept flashing my 6800 gt's bios and not properly cleaning em up.

And there I was about to suggest that before I nod off, nn (santa2)

Ninjaman09
12-12-04, 03:47 PM
Crap coding. For some reason HL2 water can sometimes cause NV40 cards to choke even though the game can chew straight through any other part of the game. There's no reasonable reason for it considering NV40s have no problem with Far Cry. Let's just say I think that 6 million ATI gave Valve was money well spent.
A good rule of thumb when you have no idea what you're talking about is to keep your mouth shut to avoid looking like a dumbass. The water shaders in Half-Life 2 are a lot more complex than Far Cry's, and if you have Reflect All selected I wouldn't be surprised seeing framerates drop to about 25-30 at the lowest on those levels. ATi cards handle large shaders better because they have a higher fill rate, hence the higher minimum FPS in shader-heavy levels. Anyway, 10fps is pretty low for your system specs. Are you sure you aren't exaggerating?

On a side note, I would like for those of you who frequently use the term "crap coding" to go ahead and explain the reasoning you used to come to this conclusion. I'm sure it'll be a laugh-fest for us all.

Toss3
12-13-04, 07:30 AM
heh ninjaman ;) chill it's christmas soon :D I got a little bit better framerate when I changed my ddr slots :D it's now using the right channels :) no wonder I had crappy framerate :D it still dips to low 20's but it's still better than before and I'm gonna upgrade next year :)

Ninjaman09
12-13-04, 08:07 AM
If there's one thing I can't stand, it's ignorant people making blind accusations. Gets my blood boiling. But you're right, (xmassign2

BioHazZarD
12-13-04, 09:30 AM
I also get crap framerates on water hazard.. its very unstable anything from 60 then suddenly 20fps when im driving the boat.... i hate this + the audio stutter its zero fun.

Vagrant Zero
12-14-04, 02:44 AM
A good rule of thumb when you have no idea what you're talking about is to keep your mouth shut to avoid looking like a dumbass. The water shaders in Half-Life 2 are a lot more complex than Far Cry's, and if you have Reflect All selected I wouldn't be surprised seeing framerates drop to about 25-30 at the lowest on those levels.

Good advice. I think you should take it considering the fact that you clearly know nothing about shaders. So let me give you a small break down.

SM1.4 [Dx8.1]
Pixel Shader Instruction Limit = 14
Vertex Shader Instruction Limit = 128

SM2.0 [Dx9]
PSI Limit = 96, 64 arithmetic, 32 texture
VSI Limit = 256

PS2.0b [Dx9c]
PSI = 512
VSI = 256 [there is no Vertex Shader Model 2.0b, it's just Pixel Shader]

SM3 [Dx9c]
PSI = 32,768
VSI = 512

So what's all that mean to the layman [that woud be you]? Not much except for this:
http://discuss.futuremark.com/forum/showflat.pl?Board=gaminggeneral&Number=4676855

You can get full quality water for HL2 in DX8 mode [albet with a small performence hit, but performence isn't the issue here, pixel shader length limits is, and no this is NOT the trick HL2 into thinking your FX is a 9x00 card patch]. DX8.1 mode...with a pixel shader limit of just 14 intructions. Far Cry's water is 50 pixel shader instructions long. That's why half a year later and there's no FC DX8 water patch. You simply can't rape 50 intructions down into 14. I think the problem is that the majority of slighty informed HL2 fanboys read Gabe's statement that HL2s max shader length was 90. 90 of course is greater than 50 right? So HL2 fanboys go on bad mouthing FC without realizing that Gabe wasn't talking about PIXEL shader length, he was talking about shaders in general. 90 out of 256 not 90 out of 96 to the laymen; vertex shader operations have always been longer than their pixel shader counterparts as evidenced by their respective limits in SM1, 1.1, 1.3, 1.4, and 2.0. SM3 is the wild card, but considering we won't have engines built with SM3 in mind until Unreal 3 [band-aid patches like FC 1.3 aren't REALLY SM3, FC is a SM1.1/2.0 hybrid engine, wasn't built with SM3 in mind at all] it's something of a moot point.

So to summarize, FC's water shaders are about 3 times as complex as HL2s [as evidenced by the ability to get full quality water in HL2 under DX8.1]. You might think HL2 has better looking water and that's your poragative, but we were discussing complexity [ie, strain on the card architecture], not personal preference so I suggest you stifle your fanboyism, it's not relevant or welcome in this discussion.


ATi cards handle large shaders better because they have a higher fill rate, hence the higher minimum FPS in shader-heavy levels.

This is why you should check your crap before beating your chest like an idiot. The GT and Pro are pretty much equal in fill rate [Pro has 5.4 GB/s vs the GTs 5.6 GB/s] yet the Pro doesn't crawl in the canal levels and hit the tweens. In fact it beats the 6800Ultra on the water maps and the Ultra has a fill rate of 6.4 GB/s. So obviously Fill Rate isn't the primary reason behind the nv40s chocking on canal water map [not when the Pros are breezing right through with ease with a lower fill rate, signifigantly lower in the case of the Pro vs Ultra].

http://www.firingsquad.com/hardware/half-life_2_performance/images/canals1600aaf.gif

Oh ya...Fill Rate...yup...that explains why the Pro is whooping the Ultra. Did you even bother to check what you said or did you simply assume we would take your garbage at face value?

If there's one thing I can't stand, it's ignorant people making blind accusations. Gets my blood boiling.

Then I suggest you stay away from mirrors for the rest of your life. (xmassign2

anzak
12-14-04, 08:22 AM
Oh ya...Fill Rate...yup...that explains why the Pro is whooping the Ultra. Did you even bother to check what you said or did you simply assume we would take your garbage at face value?

The pro isn't that much faster than an Ultra in Half Life 2. It still has the same dips, in the same places. The X800XT is a different story. Half Life 2 is very fill rate limited, that is why the X800XT has such an advatage of the 6800 Ultra.

I could turn this around and say, why does the 6800 Ultra beat the X800XT in some games when the XT has a higher fill rate and more bandwidth? Because the game prefers that hardware.

As for the water shader thing, I don't know how long the HL2's water shader is. Both Far Cry and Half-Life 2 have 90 instruction pixel shaders. Far Cry's is the PS2.0 lighting.

Vagrant Zero
12-14-04, 02:38 PM
The pro isn't that much faster than an Ultra in Half Life 2. It still has the same dips, in the same places.

Yet it still manages to beat the Ultra in heavy water areas by about 25%. A 12-piped card with less fill rate beating a 16-piped card with higher fill rate by such a large margin. This doesn't strike you as odd considering the GT beats the Pro in HL2 in pretty much every map excluding the canal water map?

I could turn this around and say, why does the 6800 Ultra beat the X800XT in some games when the XT has a higher fill rate and more bandwidth? Because the game prefers that hardware.

And what does this have to do with HL2s water? Ninja said the reason that the X800s [that includes the Pro as well] beat the NV40s in water areas is because of Fill Rate. Obviously, that's bullcrap and I posted why already.

As for the water shader thing, I don't know how long the HL2's water shader is. Both Far Cry and Half-Life 2 have 90 instruction pixel shaders. Far Cry's is the PS2.0 lighting.

No. HL2s longest pixel shaders clock in around 30-40.

One of the most anticipated games this year Half Life 2 uses Shader Model 2.0 extensively but only has a shader length of 30-40 instructions, not even coming close the 96 instruction limit in Pixel Shader 2.0. - HardOCP

http://www.hardocp.com/article.html?art=NjA5LDI=

Also FC 1.3 recompiled some of their lighting shaders and implemented mutiple passes for grass [the way they did it is only supported by VS 3.0]. While I don't know the exact number [don't think it was ever given] it'll be somewhere between 96-512.

As for HL2s water, again, it's exact number has never been given but one can take a decent guess considering it's water shader is fully functional in PS1.4 [14 instructions]. The max count of 30-40 is coming from lighting, much like FC pushes 90 with theirs and only 50 with water.

You know what though, I'm really getting sick of being the only one who's posting links to back up what they're saying.