View Full Version : Did you know?
Yonkers
12-12-04, 10:49 PM
DID YOU KNOW?
As you walk up the steps to the building which houses the U.S. Supreme Court you can see near the top of the building a row of the world's law givers and each one is facing one in the middle who is facing forward with a full frontal view ... it is Moses and he is holding the Ten Commandments!
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9164
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9165
DID YOU KNOW?
As you enter the Supreme Court courtroom, the two huge oak doors have the Ten Commandments engraved on each lower portion of each door.
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9167
DID YOU KNOW?
As you sit inside the courtroom, you can see the wall,
right above where the Supreme Court judges sit,
a display of the Ten Commandments!
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9168
Yonkers
12-12-04, 10:57 PM
DID YOU KNOW?
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9175
There are Bible verses etched in stone all over the Federal Buildings and Monuments in Washington, D.C.
DID YOU KNOW?
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9170
James Madison, the fourth president, known as "The Father of Our Constitution" made the following statement:
"We have staked the whole of all our political institutions upon the capacity of mankind for self-government, upon the capacity of each and all of us to govern ourselves, to control ourselves, to sustain ourselves according to the Ten Commandments of God."
DID YOU KNOW?
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9171
Patrick Henry, that patriot and Founding Father of our country said:
"It cannot be emphasized too strongly or too often that this great nation was founded not by religionists but by Christians, not on religions but on the Gospel of Jesus Christ".
DID YOU KNOW?
Every session of Congress begins with a prayer by a paid preacher, whose salary has been paid by the taxpayer since 1777.
DID YOU KNOW?
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9173
Fifty-two of the 55 founders of the Constitution were members of the established orthodox churches in the colonies.
DID YOU KNOW?
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9174
Thomas Jefferson worried that the Courts would overstep their authority and instead of interpreting the law would begin making law . an oligarchy ...
the rule of few over many.
Yonkers
12-12-04, 11:03 PM
DID YOU KNOW?
The very first Supreme Court Justice, John Jay, said:
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9176
"Americans should select and prefer Christians as their rulers."
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=9177
How, then, have we gotten to the point that everything we have done for 220 years in this country is now suddenly wrong and unconstitutional?
It is said that 86% of Americans believe in God. Therefore, it is very hard to understand why there is such a mess about having the Ten Commandments on display or "In God We Trust" on our money and having God in the Pledge of Allegiance. Why don't we just tell the other 14% to Sit Down and SHUT UP!!!
Because they don't want to move to some other country. So, their only recourse is to whine and spit while playing revisionist (ignorant is more like it) historian. That's the best I can make of it. Truth be told, though, most probably do know but choose to dismiss it for the sake of convenience.
In short, one either subscribes to moral relativism or not. Two very applicable quotes on this are:
In his September 19, 1796 Farewell Address to the nation, George Washington stated: "Of all the dispositions and habits which lead to political prosperity, Religion and Morality are indispensable supports. In vain would that man claim the tribute of Patriotism, who should labor to subvert these great Pillars."
William McGuffey, author of the McGuffey's Readers, which were the mainstay of America's public school system from 1836 till the 1920's, wrote: "Erase all thought and fear of God from a community, and selfishness and sensuality would absorb the whole man." Where do you think the world is heading today?
source (http://www.moral-relativism.com/)
Yonkers
12-12-04, 11:12 PM
Well Max, the funny part is that Moses is also called The Giver of the Law. LOL! Yet we can't have him any where and there is supposed to be NO intermixing of religion and state, even though it doesn't say that ANY WHERE in the constitution.
Ninjaman09
12-13-04, 08:12 AM
Heh heh, that was awesome Yonkers! I'm gonna link this thread any time someone says that religion didn't have anything to do with the founding of America. :D
DiscipleDOC
12-13-04, 08:28 AM
Yea...Good find, Yonks!
The new guy
12-13-04, 09:56 AM
Why is it if the majority has no problem with the word "God" on our money and "The ten commandments" on our court buildings, then the minority can get these things changed? Whatever happened to the majority rules?
DiscipleDOC
12-13-04, 10:01 AM
Why is it if the majority has no problem with the word "God" on our money and "The ten commandments" on our court buildings, then the minority can get these things changed? Whatever happened to the majority rules?
Simply put: You have a minority trying to change the thinking process of the majority. There's are some judges out there, some people with political agendas, and others, that want to rewrite history and keep God out of our schools, courtroom, etc....
Im all against revisionist history. Suggesting that all the founding fathers were all christians and wanted us to be ruled by christian theology is also revisionist history. Althought most of the founding fathers were religious or spiritual, most of them were deists, not christians.
Did you know?
Abraham Lincoln on Christianity:
"The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."
"I am for liberty of conscience in its noblest, broadest, and highest sense. But I cannot give liberty of conscience to the pope and his followers, the papists, so long as they tell me, through all their councils, theologians, and canon laws that their conscience orders them to burn my wife, strangle my children, and cut my throat when they find their opportunity."
Thomas Edison on Christianity:
"My mind is incapable of conceiving such a thing as a soul. I may be in error, and man may have a soul; but I simply do not believe it."
"So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake... Religion is all bunk."
"I do not believe that any type of religion should ever be introduced into the public schools of the United States."
Thomas Jefferson on Christianity:
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law"
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
John Adams on Christianity:
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."
"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine."
James Madison:
"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Govt (sic) will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
"It was the Universal opinion of the Century preceding the last, that Civil Government could not stand without the prop of a religious establishment; and that the Christian religion itself, would perish if not supported by the legal provision for its clergy. The experience of Virginia conspiciously corroboates the disproof of both opinions. The Civil Government, tho' bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success; whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total seperation of the church from the state."
Benjamin Franklin:
"As to Jesus of Nazareth...I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity."
"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan] way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist"
Yonkers
12-13-04, 11:20 AM
Im all against revisionist history. Suggesting that all the founding fathers were all christians and wanted us to be ruled by christian theology is also revisionist history. Althought most of the founding fathers were religious or spiritual, most of them were deists, not christians.
That is not what I and most Christians are saying. We are saying as it is with this thread that the history of the founding of this country came from almost singularly one specific religion's point of view and that happened to be protestant Christianity. This does not mean that all else is excluded and it also means that this fact should be wiped from the books as a very volcal minority want to do.
Now most of our founding fathers were NOT deists. This is a falsehood that is said over and over. The only founding father that was completely against any religion was John Adams (that I know of). Jefferson held service in the capitol building He also paid federal money for Catholic preists to convert native Americans to Christianity You should quote the whole letter to the Danbury Baptist association.
Gentlemen, — The affectionate sentiments of esteem and approbation which you are so good as to express towards me, on behalf of the Danbury Baptist Association, give me the highest satisfaction. My duties dictate a faithful and zealous pursuit of the interests of my constituents, and in proportion as they are persuaded of my fidelity to those duties, the discharge of them becomes more and more pleasing.
Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his God, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legislative powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should “make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,” thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.
I reciprocate your kind prayers for the protection and blessing of the common Father and Creator of man, and tender you for yourselves and your religious association, assurances of my high respect and esteem.
Jefferson is quite clear that he is talking about the protection of the church from the state and not the other way around.
Benjamin Franklin was as far as I know a Deist. He was a odd person but fascinating. There have been a few biographys on him on the History Channel last week that were really cool.
Finally Thomas Edison was NOT a founding father of this country, there for he had no input as to the creation of this country. If we were talking about conglomerates and how he advanced that then we would be in business but we are not. ;)
Abraham Lincoln was also not a founding father but a very important president.
What you quoted from Madison is very good and it fully supports our contention that the founding fathers wanted to protect the church from the government and that each could not be wholey sucessfull with out each other.
It seems a bit of selective revisionism is going on right in your own thread by quoting some NON-founding fathers and only 3 founding fathers who were not part of any church. Mean while forgetting the other 55 founding members. Quite clever I must say but still revisionism at its best. (snowcool)
intercede007
12-13-04, 12:10 PM
Im all against revisionist history. Suggesting that all the founding fathers were all christians and wanted us to be ruled by christian theology is also revisionist history. Althought most of the founding fathers were religious or spiritual, most of them were deists, not christians.
Did you know?
Abraham Lincoln on Christianity:
"The Bible is not my Book and Christianity is not my religion. I could never give assent to the long complicated statements of Christian dogma."
"I am for liberty of conscience in its noblest, broadest, and highest sense. But I cannot give liberty of conscience to the pope and his followers, the papists, so long as they tell me, through all their councils, theologians, and canon laws that their conscience orders them to burn my wife, strangle my children, and cut my throat when they find their opportunity."
Thomas Edison on Christianity:
"My mind is incapable of conceiving such a thing as a soul. I may be in error, and man may have a soul; but I simply do not believe it."
"So far as religion of the day is concerned, it is a damned fake... Religion is all bunk."
"I do not believe that any type of religion should ever be introduced into the public schools of the United States."
Thomas Jefferson on Christianity:
"Christianity neither is, nor ever was a part of the common law"
"I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their legislature should 'make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof,' thus building a wall of separation between church and State."
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the Supreme Being as his Father, in the womb of a virgin will be classified with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
"Christianity is the most perverted system that ever shone on man."
John Adams on Christianity:
"The divinity of Jesus is made a convenient cover for absurdity. Nowhere in the Gospels do we find a precept for Creeds, Confessions, Oaths, Doctrines, and whole carloads of other foolish trumpery that we find in Christianity."
"As the government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian Religion..."
"What havoc has been made of books through every century of the Christian era? Where are fifty gospels, condemned as spurious by the bull of Pope Gelasius? Where are the forty wagon-loads of Hebrew manuscripts burned in France, by order of another pope, because suspected of heresy? Remember the 'index expurgatorius', the inquisition, the stake, the axe, the halter and the guillotine."
James Madison:
"And I have no doubt that every new example will succeed, as every past one has done, in showing that religion and Govt (sic) will both exist in greater purity, the less they are mixed together."
What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not."
"It was the Universal opinion of the Century preceding the last, that Civil Government could not stand without the prop of a religious establishment; and that the Christian religion itself, would perish if not supported by the legal provision for its clergy. The experience of Virginia conspiciously corroboates the disproof of both opinions. The Civil Government, tho' bereft of everything like an associated hierarchy, possesses the requisite stability and performs its functions with complete success; whilst the number, the industry, and the morality of the priesthood, and the devotion of the people have been manifestly increased by the total seperation of the church from the state."
Benjamin Franklin:
"As to Jesus of Nazareth...I think the system of Morals and his Religion, as he left them to us, the best the World ever saw or is likely to see; but I apprehend it has received various corrupting Changes, and I have, with most of the present Dissenters in England, some doubts as to his divinity."
"My parents had early given me religious impressions, and brought me through my childhood piously in the dissenting [puritan] way. But I was scarce fifteen, when, after doubting by turns of several points, as I found them disputed in the different books I read, I began to doubt of Revelation itself. Some books against Deism fell into my hands; they were said to be the substance of sermons preached at Boyle's lectures. It happened that they wrought an effect on me quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough deist"
Bravo!
Good research! :clap2:
Yonkers
12-13-04, 12:12 PM
Bravo!
Good research! :clap2:
What does Thomas Edison and Abraham Lincoln have to do with the founding of this country?
Nothing he posted contradicts what I posted.
It seems a bit of selective revisionism is going on right in your own thread by quoting some NON-founding fathers and only 3 founding fathers who were not part of any church. Mean while forgetting the other 55 founding members. Quite clever I must say but still revisionism at its best. (snowcool)
I didn't see you quote all 55 either :D
I've got plenty more, I just didn't feel like pasting them all.
What does Thomas Edison and Abraham Lincoln have to do with the founding of this country?
Nothing he posted contradicts what I posted.
They were both important figures in American history and influenced the country as it is today. Thats why I quoted them.
DiscipleDOC
12-13-04, 12:18 PM
DaveW, you are taking what Abe Lincoln said out of context. There are many accounts of Lincoln [/b]publicly[/b] praying, and he has been quoted many times giving glory and honor to Almighty God.
This is one of his quotes:
That I am not a member of any Christian Church, is true; but I have never denied the truth of the Scriptures; and I have never spoken with intentional disrespect of religion in general, or of any denomination of Christians in particular.
Please, if you are going to debate, do more than googlize some phrases from influencial leaders. (mikec)
Yonkers
12-13-04, 12:18 PM
Man if I were to go through and post all of what they said it would take weeks. BTW Did you see the bographies on Franklin? I knew most of it but there were some things that wer truely fascinating. He was one odd cookie.
BTW I liked your post, but it only told a part of the story. ;)
Yonkers
12-13-04, 12:21 PM
DaveW, you are taking what Abe Lincoln said out of context. There are many accounts of Lincoln [/b]publicly[/b] praying, and he has been quoted many times giving glory and honor to Almighty God.
This is one of his quotes:
Please, if you are going to debate, do more than googlize some phrases from influencial leaders. (mikec)
I did not challenge Dave on Abe because I did not research him yet. I always thought Abe was a Christian, he just did not like the Catholic church.
I wasn't really worried about his quotes from Abe because Abe is not a founding father.
DaveW, you are taking what Abe Lincoln said out of context. There are many accounts of Lincoln [/b]publicly[/b] praying, and he has been quoted many times giving glory and honor to Almighty God.
Believing in God does not make you a Christian.
The founding fathers were very wary of organised religion because they knew how the governments of Europe had used the church to control the people.
DiscipleDOC
12-13-04, 12:43 PM
Believing in God does not make you a Christian.
The founding fathers were very wary of organised religion because they knew how the governments of Europe had used the church to control the people.
Never said that it did. Abe Lincoln, however, was a Christian.
The founding fathers were wary of the imposed religion that Europe was inflicting on them. They came to America to worship God in the way they wanted to.
The founding fathers were wary of the imposed religion that Europe was inflicting on them. They came to America to worship God in the way they wanted to.
They came to America for a variety of reasons. It wasn't some purely religious exodus. They, and rightly so, agreed that people should be free to follow any religion. This means that the government has no place endorsing one particular religion. Because once you say "the official religion of our country is christianity" then you have to decide on which particular sect of christianity is the official one (Catholic, Methodist, Baptist etc)... and you end up with exactly the same situation that Europe was in.
Yonkers
12-13-04, 12:53 PM
The founding fathers were very wary of organised religion because they knew how the governments of Europe had used the church to control the people.
This is not true. They were wary of the COE. Most states had a state church. The founders were representative of their state thus the reason why they had such close ties to their church, with the exception of just the few you and I both mentioned.
The Pilgrams came here with the EXPRESSED purpose of setting up their own church community. They wanted their church to be the center of their lives and goverment.
They came to America for a variety of reasons. It wasn't some purely religious exodus. They, and rightly so, agreed that people should be free to follow any religion. This means that the government has no place endorsing one particular religion. Because once you say "the official religion of our country is christianity" then you have to decide on which particular sect of christianity is the official one (Catholic, Methodist, Baptist etc)... and you end up with exactly the same situation that Europe was in.
Dave, this is why each state had their own state church. You should read the history of the churches in each state. They wanted to set up their own churches and goverments but trade with the other states. The opressive taxes form King George and the lack of representation changed all of that and lead to the states NEEDING to come together under one goverment for protection and to manage trade between the states. In fact the constitution is mainly about managing money and property between the states. It is a legal document to protect the financial intrests of the state. In order to have these free financial interests the people needed to be free thus the bill of rights.
The Pilgrams came here with the EXPRESSED purpose of setting up their own church community. They wanted their church to be the center of their lives and goverment.
I thought we were talking about founding fathers, not pilgrams. I won't deny the pilgrams were christians (even though they ate each other and didn't celebrate christmas) :)
Ninjaman09
12-13-04, 12:58 PM
Give up now, DaveW. You're fighting a losing battle here. These crazy whackjobs won't stop until we're all on our knees praising Jesus! (aaa)
Yonkers
12-13-04, 01:12 PM
I thought we were talking about founding fathers, not pilgrams. I won't deny the pilgrams were christians (even though they ate each other and didn't celebrate christmas) :)
True, we were but in order to understand how amlost all the states had a state church I decided to go to the beginning of the Christian movement to America.
I am not denying that John Adams, Franklin and to some degree Jefferson were not part of a organized church but were "spiritual". I am how ever saying that the rest and the people whom they represented at the constitutional convention were very much Chrstians. In fact another reason why we have the 2nd amendment and the reason it is worded that way it is IS because of the state ran churches, especially in the norther states. They did not want other state's chruches over-ruling their churches.
Even though you disagree to some extent to us, I really like American history and particularly the foundation of the US.
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