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test
01-05-05, 08:17 PM
I understand that there will be a vector-based graphics upgrade for XP coming out soon, called apache or something. Longhorn will also be vector-based. Will this at all affect the way that graphics cards perform? Will current graphics cards support vector-based graphics or is that something that would require a card upgrade? Just curious.

anzak
01-05-05, 08:27 PM
I understand that there will be a vector-based graphics upgrade for XP coming out soon, called apache or something. Longhorn will also be vector-based. Will this at all affect the way that graphics cards perform? Will current graphics cards support vector-based graphics or is that something that would require a card upgrade? Just curious.

An upgrade for XP? Thats news to me!

Vector based graphics are the same you see in flash animations. Since it uses code to create the image instead of a set number of colored pixels the image is infinitely sharp, no matter how much you zoom in. Vector based images is also smaller than raster based images. So no, you will not need an upgrade. If this is true, I can't wait!

test
01-05-05, 08:44 PM
So I've read. And if we are talking in microsoft years, it could be a while.

Mud
01-05-05, 09:05 PM
do you just mean that deeley thats replacing directX (sleepy, name eludes me right now...)

Mud
01-05-05, 09:07 PM
windows graphics foundation...thats it...

from neowin.net

'Microsoft Readies DirectX Replacement

Microsoft is very close to releasing its newest iteration of DirectX. Dubbed the "Windows Graphics Foundation" (WGF), Microsoft will reunite DirectDraw and Direct3D into one package allowing the graphics subsystem of a PC to be completely integrated into the operating system.

Reports cite the latest versions of the WGF to be at version 0.99, just shy of an initial release. The initial release of WGF will allow hardware vendors like ATI and nVidia to begin work on hardware offerings compliant to the new graphics spec. The WGF will also allow graphics card creators the first opportunity to develop Shader Model 4 compliant hardware.'

Subtestube
01-05-05, 10:21 PM
No, he's talking Avalon - the replacement for GDI+. It was originally going to be Longhorn only, but now it's supposedly going to be released as a [substantially sized] 'patch' around the end of 2k5 (supposedly). It should be pretty GPU heavy for what's basically a nice looking UI.

einstein_314
01-05-05, 11:30 PM
Whoa, this is news to me. But what does changing the GUI to vector based have to do with a new version of DirectX?

Mud
01-05-05, 11:44 PM
my bad, i've been awake 2 days straight, its taking its toll! :eek:

Subtestube
01-05-05, 11:54 PM
Whoa, this is news to me. But what does changing the GUI to vector based have to do with a new version of DirectX?

It doesn't. As I said, it's all to do with Avalon.

CaptNKILL
01-06-05, 01:15 AM
I dont get why we need anything like that. Vector graphics are cool, but whats the point in making the whole UI out of it. Itl be a lot slower and more complicated. Itl be infinitely resizable with no quality loss but ive never seen anyone complain about resizing windows anyway (and really, how much do you need to do it?).

Does anyone know the reason for this big change? I hope it isnt going to be mandatory for a windows update :lame:

Subtestube
01-06-05, 02:24 AM
Basically to make things prettier. Real video acceleration of UI should improve responsiveness in general as well. The main reason, I think, is to bring it into line with (and in fact beyond) Quartz Extreme, which, to my knowledge, is VERY VERY nice to work with. It'll also dramatically simplify the job of people developing complex UIs for Windows. Least, that's what I hear. All my dev experience has typically dodged directly dealing with window building and Windows style UI, so I can't comment as much as I'd like.

msxyz
01-06-05, 03:18 AM
I've heard that Longhorn will ship with 2 GDIs: one is the "fallback" path for any card regardless of specific 3D hardware support the other is the one with bell and whistles which requires DX9 hardware.

Why people care so much about skins, Gui and the rest of the crap is beyond me. I'd rather have my command prompt back that seeing windows taking 80MB of memory alone at startup. Hell even the smallest application in the taskbar takes a couple of megabytes! One wonders how could men live and work "back in teh dark ages" when computers used to have a few kilobytes of RAM

Subtestube
01-06-05, 03:39 AM
Hahah.. nice call. But yes, there are supposedly going to be 3 modes Longhorn can run in

- Avalon: Everything. Requires some serious hardware. I think at present the minimum to see Windows in all its glory will be a DX9 card with 128 meg of memory. That'll mean a good 5700/9500 or higher to my mind.
- Air (or something along those lines): Either this'll be reduced Avalon, and run on DX8/low end DX9 hardware, or it'll be an improved GDI+
- GDI+: The current XP UI controllerthingumybob. Will run on anything.

Again, this is all reliant on my fragile memory actually recalling articles I read months ago on the whole thing, so I could be misremembering multiple things.

npras42
01-06-05, 05:15 AM
I dont get why we need anything like that. Vector graphics are cool, but whats the point in making the whole UI out of it. Itl be a lot slower and more complicated. Itl be infinitely resizable with no quality loss but ive never seen anyone complain about resizing windows anyway (and really, how much do you need to do it?).

Does anyone know the reason for this big change? I hope it isnt going to be mandatory for a windows update :lame:

Actually, just to be different, I say that I cant wait for everything to be resizable. I have a 21" Sony Trinitron monitor that can do 1920*1440, but I would never run it at that resolution (even though it makes browsing the internet and desktop managment so much better) because all the icons are the size of a pea, and its hard to read the text at the lower refresh rate.

With Vector graphics, everything would stay exactly the same size no matter what resolution you used. Yeah sure enough you can resize icons and stuff with XP, but it is quite laborious and doesnt ever work out quite like you'd want it to.

Im not into flashy GUIs, and I dont like XP default, I always switch to Classic, but I am actually looking forward to this. Hopefully it wont bring any PC to its knees because its actually using more of your PCs resources to do stuff, and not wasting it all when on the desktop.

Morrow
01-06-05, 05:31 AM
Will current graphics cards support vector-based graphics or is that something that would require a card upgrade? Just curious.

Em, vector is just the antiquitated word for polygon graphics as we know them now. When the first 3d games were released on the C64/Amiga/Atari, people referred to them as vector graphics in lack of a better word.

"Elite" for example was released during the time period where 3d graphics were referred to or started to be referred to as vector graphics.

To answer your question: yes, current graphiccard will support vector graphics as it is the same as 3d polygon graphics.

However no one knows what the real requirements for Avalon really will be when it's finalized. Therefore is still possible that you have to upgrade your graphiccards in order to use all the features Avalon will support.

msxyz
01-06-05, 07:04 AM
When S3 and other companies brought the very first video cards with native hardware acceleration they used the term : "GUI accelerator" because, among other things, the cards were able to draw lines (vectors, so to speak), curves, etc...

Before the advent of Win95 and DirectX there was already under windows 3.1x a set of libraries intended mostly to do 3D stuff through an abstraction layer but it never took off. Hell, I cannot even remeber its name

TierMann
01-06-05, 08:46 AM
There's vector graphics (SVG) in Gnome, for *nix, right now and has been for a while. It's used in some themes for icons and window borders (decorations). I think most other desktop environments for X support SVG too.

test
01-06-05, 04:37 PM
Avalon, apache, I knew it started with an A =P

Parts
01-06-05, 05:32 PM
Apache is a HTTP server for unix isnt it lol.

But I think a while back the people who make the Apache server had a project called "Avalon" :P

superklye
01-06-05, 07:44 PM
I thought apache worked on Windows, too?

Morrow
01-06-05, 09:53 PM
I thought apache worked on Windows, too?

yes, apache is also available for windows. Two years ago the Windows version of Apache was even more widespread than the unix/linux versions.

But I don't know how it looks like currently...

Parts
01-06-05, 11:58 PM
Windows NT I believe.