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SH64
01-17-05, 06:54 PM
Ever wondered whats the graphical difference between SM1.1 & SM2.0 in MOH : PA ?? & is it worth it ?
well i made a little screenshots comparsion .

SM1.1
http://img76.exs.cx/img76/8540/mohpa20050118033521316uz.jpg

SM2.0
http://img82.exs.cx/img82/5966/mohpa20050118034005646jq.jpg



From this screenshot alone i can spot several differences showing the SM2.0 advantage :
1) The specular in the weapon
2) The hand skin detail
3) The shadows
4) The terrain detail (vertex shaders 2.0?)
5) The skin detail of the drill instrcutor & the other marines .
6) The performance hit ! (err.. disadvantage) :p
& also you easily notice it in the waters in other parts of the game .

that leads me to wonder if using SM3.0 would really improve the performance in that scene if it was implemented ?!

nVidi0t
01-17-05, 11:10 PM
There's definately a big difference. Nothing looks as "matt" using SM2.0. It can really be detrimental to performance though, especially when things get crazy (tarawa atoll).

Daneel Olivaw
01-17-05, 11:15 PM
I'd like such shots on an nvidia, forcing VS2.0 and PS1.4

msxyz
01-18-05, 01:52 AM
The specular of the weapon. Err.. Could have been done as well with a fixed function card

Terrain detail. What has to do a texture resolution with PS ?

I still have to see a USEFUL implementation of SM 2.+ in games. Hopefull, as the next generation console will bring a new wave of titles basically designed to take advantage of them, will see something more

YOGIx213
01-18-05, 03:32 AM
Both shots look kind of weak..is that how MOHPA really looks throughout? (I'm asking obviously because I don't have it).

Beng
01-18-05, 03:43 AM
Both shots look kind of weak..is that how MOHPA really looks throughout? (I'm asking obviously because I don't have it).

The instruction scenes are imho the worsests points in-game graphical wise.
Besides this, FSAA doesn't work yet in this game. This will be solved in the next patch expected end of this week.

Btw, try the latest Multiplayer demo, it rocks. ;) (FSAA works here)

http://www.eagames.com/official/moh/pacassault/us/editorial.jsp?src=downloads

YOGIx213
01-18-05, 03:56 AM
So they are going to fix the FSAA bug in the next patch? That was one of the main reasons I held off from buying the game. I'll wait and see if the new patch addresses the issue. If so, I might pick it up. Thanks!

SH64
01-18-05, 10:38 AM
Terrain detail. What has to do a texture resolution with PS ?


Dunno i thought it had something to do with the geometrey ?! as you can see theres a differnece between SM1.1 & SM2.0 .

FSAA doesn't work yet in this game. This will be solved in the next patch expected end of this week.

thats great to hear ! i was looking forward to see FSAA enabled in MOH PA .

Nitz Walsh
01-18-05, 12:24 PM
Uh...is that your actual performance? 23fps without any AA? Both of your rigs are quite up there - that's abysmal considering your hardware.

SH64
01-18-05, 01:03 PM
Uh...is that your actual performance? 23fps without any AA? Both of your rigs are quite up there - that's abysmal considering your hardware.

Sadly that was my performance on the 6800GT & BTW 16xAF/HQ was forced in that shot .
the X800 card get double that framerate @1600x1200,8xAF,HQ .. go figure!

for some reason the performance of MOH: PA is very bad on the geforce 6 series & i already reported that to nVIDIA .

XP_GUN
01-18-05, 02:16 PM
FSAA didnít work? :lol: I was wondering why everything looked so jaged with 4x on...

stncttr908
01-18-05, 03:32 PM
There's definately a big difference. Nothing looks as "matt" using SM2.0. It can really be detrimental to performance though, especially when things get crazy (tarawa atoll).
Yeah, it was a borderline slideshow in certain parts of those last few levels.

fivefeet8
01-19-05, 12:47 AM
Strangely, using the same settings of 1280x1024 w16xAF on my 6800 ultra gives me around 41 fps on the same scene. My video card is overclocked, but it shouldn't give me almost twice the fps as you.

http://img127.exs.cx/img127/8892/mohpa20050118225132353tj.jpg

SH64
01-19-05, 08:51 AM
Strangely, using the same settings of 1280x1024 w16xAF on my 6800 ultra gives me around 41 fps on the same scene. My video card is overclocked, but it shouldn't give me almost twice the fps as you.



hmm was that on HQ (All opt disabled / Negative LOD:Allow) ?? in Q i get like 32fps .. also what drivers are you using ?? i'm using 67.02 .

fivefeet8
01-19-05, 11:18 AM
hmm was that on HQ (All opt disabled / Negative LOD:Allow) ?? in Q i get like 32fps .. also what drivers are you using ?? i'm using 67.02 .

That shot was in Q settings with trilinear Opts on, AF sample opts on, and mip filter opts off. I get 32 fps in HQ settings. I'm using the 67.66 forcewares. I can't tell much difference from HQ or Q so I use the Q settings.

If you've disabled all opts on the 6800 card which also has a 400 mhz CPU deficit, did you disable all opts on the x800pro@x800XTPE?

SH64
01-19-05, 11:22 AM
If you've disabled all opts on the 6800 card which also has a 400 mhz CPU deficit, did you disable all opts on the x800pro?

Its set to HQ there as well , but i dont know how to disable the opts in the ATi drivers ??
& btw the comparsion i made between the X800 (@X800XT-PE)& the 6800GT(@6800U) had the opts enabled in the nVIDIA drivers (8xAF,Q) while the X800 is (8xAF,HQ) .

fivefeet8
01-19-05, 11:29 AM
Its set to HQ there as well , but i dont know how to disable the opts in the ATi drivers ??
& btw the comparsion i made between the X800 (@X800XT-PE)& the 6800GT(@6800U) had the opts enabled in the nVIDIA drivers (8xAF,Q) while the X800 is (8xAF,HQ) .

If you use the CAt AI, then I think you can disable some optimizations, namely the Adaptive AF. I'm not sure you can disable the AF texture stage optimizations from AI though. This optimization only gets disabled when using ingame per Application AF settings. MOHAA: PA doesn't have an AF option though.

For reference, I get about 50 FPS with pixel Shader 1.1 at Q settings.

SH64
01-19-05, 11:32 AM
If you use the CAt AI, then I think you can disable some optimizations, namely the Adaptive AF. I'm not sure you can disable the AF texture stage optimizations from AI though. This optimization only gets disabled when using ingame per Application AF settings. MOHAA: PA doesn't have an AF option though.

For reference, I get about 50 FPS with pixel Shader 1.1 at Q settings.

Well i dont use CCC , but i didnt see a graphical difference between the compasrion shots i made either .
i'll to dig around to see if i have the shots & post them here if i can .

SH64
01-19-05, 12:28 PM
Ok heres the same scene on the X800XT-PE system .

42fps@1600x1200,16xAF,HQ (4.12):

http://img142.exs.cx/img142/7385/mohpa20050119210502824ij.jpg

i have other compasrion shots that shows much bigger differnece .. heres one of exmaple on the (66.93) drivers @1600x1200,8xAF,Q vs (4.12) @1600x1200,8xAF,HQ :

6800GT@U :
http://img130.exs.cx/img130/6250/mohpa20041201042952364aj.jpg


X800XT-PE :
http://img117.exs.cx/img117/191/mohpa11x800xt26pg.jpg



I have more screenshots . if anyone interested please ask & i'll post them . i just dont wanna waste time & bandwidth by posting them if no one really interested :o

fivefeet8
01-19-05, 01:44 PM
Well i dont use CCC , but i didnt see a graphical difference between the compasrion shots i made either .
i'll to dig around to see if i have the shots & post them here if i can .

Even in HQ mode, without CCC AI, ATi's optimizations are still enabled. Nvidia on the other hand disables all optimizations with HQ selected. That's pretty much exactly what these optimizations do. Increase performance at almost no detriment to IQ. I suggest you try Quality with the optimizations enabled on the 6800 because your pretty much comparing ATi's optimized AF filtering with Nvidia's disabled all optimizations filtering. Plus you've got a 400 mhz CPU advantage with the x800pro@x800xtpe.

I do however agree that performance of MOHAA:PA is better on an x800xtPE though. ;)

SH64
01-19-05, 01:56 PM
I suggest you try Quality with the optimizations enabled on the 6800 because your pretty much comparing ATi's optimized AF filtering with Nvidia's disabled all optimizations filtering. Plus you've got a 400 mhz CPU advantage with the x800pro@x800xtpe.

so even if i used Q & added 400Mhz what the framerate increase would be in that shot ?? 50 ? 55 ? 60? .. its still too low .
thats either indicate a drivers problem or the game isnt optimized very well for the NV hardware which is a pity .

fivefeet8
01-19-05, 02:15 PM
so even if i used Q & added 400Mhz what the framerate increase would be in that shot ?? 50 ? 55 ? 60? .. its still too low .
thats either indicate a drivers problem or the game isnt optimized very well for the NV hardware which is a pity .

The CPU is 12% faster + optimizations can give as much as 25%. That might raise the FPS on the 6800 to 53-55 FPS at most probably. Still not quite as fast as 72 FPS, but not as low as 42 fps either. ;)

I think it's a combination of an Nvidia's driver problem and the game itself. Maybe it's ATi's Adaptive filtering at it's best. :p Maybe if you could try the game but use AI to disable all optimizations.

SH64
01-19-05, 02:34 PM
The CPU is 12% faster + optimizations can give as much as 25%. That might raise the FPS on the 6800 to 53-55 FPS at most probably. Still not quite as fast as 72 FPS, but not as low as 42 fps either. ;)

I think it's a combination of an Nvidia's driver problem and the game itself. Maybe it's ATi's Adaptive filtering at it's best. :p Maybe if you could try the game but use AI to disable all optimizations.

LOL ! that will be one a hell of optimiztion . if ATi can get such HUGE performance gains with its "adaptive filtering" i'll be the first one to encourage such optimizations ! :D
i would try it but i have no CCC drivers on my X800 system .. heck even .net Framework isnt installed there .
i keep using the standard drivers since they are already doing very good in all games , maybe i'll be forced someday to use the CCC & see what the heck is that all about .. but not now .

heh with the new patch coming i wonder how the perforamnce will be with FSAA enabled !

Beng
01-20-05, 12:34 AM
I suggest you try Quality with the optimizations enabled on the 6800 because your pretty much comparing ATi's optimized AF filtering

Don't agree this. I have both cards (actually had, sold the 6800GT last week), but if you use 'Quality' incl. optimizations you'll get texture shimmering (aliased textures while moving) in situations where Ati don't show this.
So yes, you'll boost the performance but the IQ (in movement) is not on par anymore (in some situations) with Ati.

Btw, i don't speak for MoHPA specific now, i'm speaking for general gaming.

ATI_Dude
01-20-05, 09:28 AM
so even if i used Q & added 400Mhz what the framerate increase would be in that shot ?? 50 ? 55 ? 60? .. its still too low .
thats either indicate a drivers problem or the game isnt optimized very well for the NV hardware which is a pity .

You're forgetting that the X800XT-PE has more fillrate than the 6800 Ultra (8320 Mpixels vs. 6400 Mpixels = 30 % advantage). At higher resolutions fillrate is the most important bottleneck in graphics performance and at 1600x1200 the X800XT-PE has a significant advantage. This coupled with the fact that your ATI system has a faster processor explains the performance gap.