US liberal media is the new Tokyo Rose

[Yonkers]

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/027/world/British_troops_laughed_and_jokP.shtml

Ya know what? This crying and nashing of teeth about "abuse" in Iraq has really got to stop. It is constant and has only one purpose, to try and discredit the whole war effort. Frankly it is pathetic and ignores REAL torture that had been STATE IMPLIMENT by Saddam. Their "selection" of what is horrible and out of line is so one sided. They never bat an eye about the beheadings and the fact that these terrorists do not take prisoners. They kill us. Oh I forgot they also wont call them terrorists. In fact they are more and more calling them freedom fighters.

So what is the final conclusion we can get from such constant negative reports about the war effort? Simple, our liberal media wants us to fail in the war effort to make Iraq a democracy.

[Drumphil]

Looks to me like the article mostly just puts forwards quotes from the different people involved in the court case, showing whats happening and what they are saying. Exactly what is your problem with this article, or the way its presented?

This article isn't about Saddam or the terrorists. Could you make a link between your claims over the liberal media, and the actual contents of that article. Anway, since when do we only hold ourselves to the same low standards that Saddam and the terrorists do. The behavior of terrorists is not under our control and is not our concern, but the behavior of our soldiers is. What the hell do the actions of terrorists or Saddam have to do with the case against these people? Are they going to use examples of the bad things that were done by those people as a defence in their case?

Ya know what? This crying and nashing of teeth about "abuse" in Iraq has really got to stop. It is constant and has only one purpose, to try and discredit the whole war effort.

Yeah, cause no body really cares about this sort of thing, so it MUST only be about discrediging the war effort :rolleyes: Whats the link to this article anyway?

Frankly it is pathetic and ignores REAL torture that had been STATE IMPLIMENT by Saddam. Their "selection" of what is horrible and out of line is so one sided. They never bat an eye about the beheadings and the fact that these terrorists do not take prisoners. They kill us. Oh I forgot they also wont call them terrorists. In fact they are more and more calling them freedom fighters.

I'm assuming there is some relevance to the article quoted in there somewhere?

So what is the final conclusion we can get from such constant negative reports about the war effort? Simple, our liberal media wants us to fail in the war effort to make Iraq a democracy.

You sure picked a strange article to make your case for those arguments. Whats more, its the courts that will decide the fate of the men mentioned in the article, not the media. The article mostly just shows what arguments they were making in court. Where is your criticism of the military and governments involved for doing this? They make the rules, and have put these men on trial, but you blame the media and liberals?

Article Text:

OSNABRUECK, Germany (AP) British troops laughed and joked as they made two Iraqi men simulate sex acts after detaining them for looting, a soldier testified Thursday at the court-martial of three comrades accused of mistreating civilians.

Fusilier Gary Bartlam, who photographed the alleged abuse at a British base outside Basra in 2003 sparking the scandal seemed nervous at first and spoke haltingly as he faced his former colleagues for the first time in court.

The photos, taken after soldiers rounded up looters who stole humanitarian aid stockpiled at the base, included an images of naked detainees and of a tied-up Iraqi hoisted on a forklift, shocking Britain when they first emerged in court.

Bartlam, 20, said he went to his quarters after the roundup. When he re-emerged, he saw two naked Iraqis with soldiers around them being forced into sexual poses, he said.

''People were laughing, bantering, joking around about what they were doing,'' he said. Those watching included Cpl. Daniel Kenyon, 33, the highest-ranking of the three defendants and the commander of Bartlam's anti-tank platoon, Bartlam said.

About 15 minutes earlier, he said, Kenyon was standing next to a bound Iraqi lying on the dusty ground and asked Bartlam to get some water. Bartlam said he complied, then poured water on the man to refresh and clean him.

Another defendant, Lance Cpl. Mark Cooley, 25, drove the forklift, Bartlam said.

Kenyon, Cooley and Lance Cpl. Darren Larkin, 30, are charged in the alleged abuse at the aid warehouse being guarded by British troops in southern Iraq in May 2003.

Kenyon and Cooley have pleaded not guilty to all the charges against them, while Larkin has pleaded guilty to one count of battery and not guilty to other counts.

Bartlam, whose rank is the equivalent of private, brought his film back to England to be developed, and the photo lab called the police. He was convicted separately of charges related to the incidents, but the judge imposed reporting restrictions on details of his trial.

Kenyon's lawyer accused Bartlam on Thursday of lying and ridiculed him for telling the court that he took the photos to show to his parents.

''You were from start to finish the prime mover,'' lawyer Joseph Giret asserted. He claimed prosecutors dropped four counts charging Bartlam with actively taking part in the abuse as part of a plea bargain. Prosecutors did not immediately respond.

Bartlam sat facing the defendants in the courtroom at a British barracks, but they seemed not to look at each other. Kenyon took notes, while the other two just looked on the proceedings.

Bartlam said Thursday that his unit believed they were supposed to show captured civilians that day that ''we do mean business,'' based on an order he said Kenyon passed along the day before.

Kenyon told the unit to take poles used to hold up camouflage netting with them for their protection and to ''beast'' the Iraqis, Bartlam testified, using a slang term for making the captives work hard.

''We were told to use them if they stepped out of line beast them basically tap them to show that we do mean business,'' Bartlam told the court-martial.

The compound's commander, Maj. Dan Taylor, has said he gave an order to capture looters and ''work them hard'' by making them pick up garbage and bring stolen food supplies to a collection point in the compound.

Taylor has sought to portray the defendants as rogue soldiers who exceeded his order without his knowledge.

Defense lawyers argue that Taylor's instructions to his men were so vague they invited misunderstanding, and that he encouraged an undisciplined atmosphere by telling soldiers to wear track suits instead of uniforms so they could better chase looters.

Now, if you wanna have a debate over problems with liberal media, fine, but it would be wise to link some relevant articles, and show quotes from them that back up your points, rather than ranting over what seems to be a fairly neutral article about a court case. Heck, I may even agree with some of your complaints about the liberal media, but I just don't see what this article really has to do with it.

[nod]

http://www.boston.com/dailynews/027/world/British_troops_laughed_and_jokP.shtml

Ya know what? This crying and nashing of teeth about "abuse" in Iraq has really got to stop. It is constant and has only one purpose, to try and discredit the whole war effort. Frankly it is pathetic and ignores REAL torture that had been STATE IMPLIMENT by Saddam. Their "selection" of what is horrible and out of line is so one sided. They never bat an eye about the beheadings and the fact that these terrorists do not take prisoners. They kill us. Oh I forgot they also wont call them terrorists. In fact they are more and more calling them freedom fighters.

So what is the final conclusion we can get from such constant negative reports about the war effort? Simple, our liberal media wants us to fail in the war effort to make Iraq a democracy.

Seems to me that there was plenty of coverage Saddam and Son's torture practices and secret police operations and such. Ditto the beheadings. I don't think this is a valid point. The coverage was, and is there.

However, I don't doubt that some liberal-biased media are using the abuse stories to further their agenda. This does not, and should not however lessen the impact of the facts that some extremely unfortunate events went on over there under our watch (ie, Abu Graihb, etc.).

Saddam's abuse of his people was wrong. The Iraqi police's abuse of Iraqis was wrong. US Soldier abuse of prisoners is wrong. Simple as that. None of it justifiable. None of it is acceptable.

Of course the liberal-biased media outlets are gonna pile-on and hammer this issue home. It's part of the game, just like when conservative media piles-on and hammers away. Both sides do it, and I'll agree with you, it is highly frustrating, and a distortion of reality that has sadly become "ok" to present in our media.

[Riptide]

I agree coverage was there both ways. It's ofcourse very difficult to quantify but IMO there is far more coverage of the prisoner abuse at the hands of our soldiers and intelligence agencies as well as guantanamo and prisoner rights vs. the crimes Saddam and sons commited and the beheadings.

[Phyre]

Posted this the other day. It doesn't address the "torture" issue directly, but it does address the pessimism and disillusion of the media.

http://www.blackfive.net/main/2005/01/aiding_and_abbe.html

Phyre

[bknblk]

I have made this statement before and I shall make it again: The "abuse" that has occured is nothing compared to our prisons and the some of the sadistic correction officers' actions wrt prisoners. OOH, a simulated sex act between two LOOTERS, how appalling. I say we put them in Uday's iron maiden or dust off Saddam's plastic shredder and feed them in feet first. Yonkers, I beleive I understand the point you are making to be one of frustration with our bleeding heart press overhyping relatively minor events, sensitizing the American population to the degree that they won't be happy until every prisoner has cable TV and no less than Johnny Cochran defending them while they spend their nights of confinement in the Ritz on Egyptian cotton sheets.

I feel your pain and know the frustration you are experiencing. It has gotten to the point that liberals don't even rely on common sense in their arguments, just so long as they contradict or attempt to discredit the current administration. Never before in modern history has a nominee for Secretary of State received a single vote of no in during their confirmation. This is all just getting so effing petty. Let's join hands and go kill some terrorists before their kids kill ours.

[Yonkers]

As usual you are right BK. Drumphill missed the point of this thread and only focused on the article. The article is just one example of a trend that I TALKED about and as a point in fact our liberal media is actively trying to halt this rebuilding of iraq. They have even leaked secure information.

[Yonkers]

Seems to me that there was plenty of coverage Saddam and Son's torture practices and secret police operations and such. Ditto the beheadings. I don't think this is a valid point. The coverage was, and is there.

However, I don't doubt that some liberal-biased media are using the abuse stories to further their agenda. This does not, and should not however lessen the impact of the facts that some extremely unfortunate events went on over there under our watch (ie, Abu Graihb, etc.).

Saddam's abuse of his people was wrong. The Iraqi police's abuse of Iraqis was wrong. US Soldier abuse of prisoners is wrong. Simple as that. None of it justifiable. None of it is acceptable.

Of course the liberal-biased media outlets are gonna pile-on and hammer this issue home. It's part of the game, just like when conservative media piles-on and hammers away. Both sides do it, and I'll agree with you, it is highly frustrating, and a distortion of reality that has sadly become "ok" to present in our media.

THis is not accurate. It is true the media covered the beheadings and some of what saddam and his spawn did but it was nothing even close to the coverage that Abu Grabarss got. Not even close. Abu was covered by the media every day for 2 months solid and it was not even that bad of a situation. What we have is a media that wanted it to be bigger than it was. Shoot there were some Iraqi police that tortured the terrorists and I only read it one place and then it was never talked about and this was just last week.

The imbalance is staggering.

Saddam's abuse of his people was wrong. The Iraqi police's abuse of Iraqis was wrong. US Soldier abuse of prisoners is wrong. Simple as that. None of it justifiable. None of it is acceptable.
Two things here. Saddams terror wasn't abuse. I am sure you would agree with me. He was in whole sale slaughter of his own people. We were definately abusing prisonors but this is not even close to the same level of what Saddam did.

Secondly the people we were abusing were at least criminals and terrorists. The media interviews ONE STINKING person who says he did nothing wrong and runs with it for a week. We later find out that almost all the people in that cell block were either hard core criminals or terrorists.

Honestly if we have to kill a terrorist in order to get information out of him that will save our troop... I would pull the trigger my self.

In no way am I defending what those who were in volved in the abuse, they get what punishment they deserve. Yet my point is the political reason why the media puts this war in the light that it is doing. They have done this before. I talked about the Tet offensive and how we slaughtered the NVC and they were willing to come to the table to talk a truce but our media ( the same people that were in the media back then) said we lost that offensive and that inturn gave the NVC a new life. They realize that our media would report any casualty as "we are losing". There for they changed their stratagey from large military confrontations to small raids on villages and on bases in order to give the appearance of chaos and instability. This is exactly what is happening in Iraq. This is all show and the truth is we are winning over there and have been for some time but the impatients of the US people and the truely underhanded and almost treasonous actions by some of our media is helping the terrorists.

I am sick of it.

[nod]

THis is not accurate. It is true the media covered the beheadings and some of what saddam and his spawn did but it was nothing even close to the coverage that Abu Grabarss got. Not even close. Abu was covered by the media every day for 2 months solid and it was not even that bad of a situation. What we have is a media that wanted it to be bigger than it was. Shoot there were some Iraqi police that tortured the terrorists and I only read it one place and then it was never talked about and this was just last week.

I agree that AG got more coverage. I think that part of the reason is indeed the liberal-biased media piling-on, as I stated above. I also think a big part of it was that the "good guys" (Americans) were exposed doing something bad. We were participating in similar activities, albeit nowhere as extreme, that we were over the supposedly liberating them from.

As a conservative, I can see how you'd be frustrated with this. However, I think that you need to concede that the right-wing media does this as well. It's lose/lose situation. All biased news sucks. Left and Right.

Secondly the people we were abusing were at least criminals and terrorists. The media interviews ONE STINKING person who says he did nothing wrong and runs with it for a week. We later find out that almost all the people in that cell block were either hard core criminals or terrorists.

To my knowledge, the prisoners in AG hadn't been given a trial (or mil. tribunal), and we're still holding to the "innocent until proven guilty"-thing, aren't we? Even if they were criminals and terrorists, it doesn't justify the abuse. If they were tried, found guilty, then they deserve whatever punishment is deemed appropriate - but again, what went on in AG was WRONG -- LET'S NOT DEBATE THIS PART ANYMORE.

Honestly if we have to kill a terrorist in order to get information out of him that will save our troop... I would pull the trigger my self.

That's fine. If we change our policy, make it official, and outline accepted practices, then it's all good. The problem is when you have a policy, and the policy is broken. (It's also unfortunate that these practices also reportedly violated the Geneva convention.) Until then, you can't have it both ways.

In no way am I defending what those who were in volved in the abuse, they get what punishment they deserve. Yet my point is the political reason why the media puts this war in the light that it is doing. They have done this before. I talked about the Tet offensive and how we slaughtered the NVC and they were willing to come to the table to talk a truce but our media ( the same people that were in the media back then) said we lost that offensive and that inturn gave the NVC a new life. They realize that our media would report any casualty as "we are losing". There for they changed their stratagey from large military confrontations to small raids on villages and on bases in order to give the appearance of chaos and instability. This is exactly what is happening in Iraq. This is all show and the truth is we are winning over there and have been for some time but the impatients of the US people and the truely underhanded and almost treasonous actions by some of our media is helping the terrorists.

I am sick of it.

I think you're taking it too seriously. The media blows for the most part. Don't you remember before the war, ALL of the media outlets had a hard-on to get the thing started? They were ALL salivating for us to make the first strike - both liberal and conservative media. They couldn't wait for it, and I think that in some part, they may have actually HELPED get the goddamned war rolling - which is beyond disgusting.

The liberal media was pimping the war just as much as the hawk news. So what happened? The liberal media sold-out. If Clinton was running the war, CNN would pimp it and Fox would slag it. It's just the other way 'round right now is all.

I for one don't know the truth of what's going on over there. There is so much bull****... everything is slanted one way or another. So much propaganda and spin. I do feel terrible for the people who are trying to live through that mess. If you have any sources of news that you feel are unbiased, please share them. (and not that fascist neo-con crap you read please) :)

[saturnotaku]

The liberal media was pimping the war just as much as the hawk news. So what happened? The liberal media sold-out. If Clinton was running the war, CNN would pimp it

Don't forget to add ABC, CBS and NBC to that list as well. The left-leaning media is far more prevalent, the journalists themselves even admit it. Heck, in my news organization (which thankfully is probably the most unbiased media outlet in Chicago) I'm one of only two conservatives in a newsroom of 20.

[Phyre]

Maybe it's just me, but I find it extremely odd that Abu Ghraib defense's position was reported a week or so before the final verdict. I was of the belief that some of the things were wrong. But, the following was reported on too little.

Pyramid thing: This was used as a control mechanism. If one of the prisoners were to try and manuveur to escape that sitution, the pyramid would falter giving the interrogators the upper hand in controlling the situation.

Hoods: These were used to not allow the prisoners to know the location of interrogators thus preventing the ablilty to attempt escape.

Being naked: People are less likely to be violent if they are naked during interrogation.

Give the guys/gals one month in the clink and strip them of one month's pay for being stupid enough to take pictures.

When asking a Vietnam veteran, with whom I work, about this when it first came out he said it is something that was blown out of proportion and nothing should have come of it.

For me, the only thing these soldiers are guilty of is being stupid enough to take pictures.

Phyre

[nod]

...and the leash-lady? The homosexual stuff? Etc.?

As I said, let's leave AG for now. Please.

[evilchris]

...and the leash-lady? The homosexual stuff? Etc.?

As I said, let's leave AG for now. Please.

Question: How do you avoid having a leash around your neck?

Answer: Don't be a terrorist asshole.

[Phyre]

...and the leash-lady? The homosexual stuff? Etc.?

As I said, let's leave AG for now. Please.

I'm sorry. I guess we can't have different opinions anymore.

Phyre

[sytaylor]

I for one don't know the truth of what's going on over there. There is so much bull****... everything is slanted one way or another. So much propaganda and spin. I do feel terrible for the people who are trying to live through that mess. If you have any sources of news that you feel are unbiased, please share them. (and not that fascist neo-con crap you read please) :)

Somewhere between bbc news and skynews you get a good view. Although I find going to google, searching for a story and then reading it on several different sources is about the best way to cover your bases. We have an excellent programme here in the UK as well, newsnight. Which may have BBC slant *cough* Hutton *cough*... but it does give all sides a loud voice and plenty of time to air their views.