Ati Taking The Piss Out Of Nvidia

[Mr_LoL]

http://www.theinquirer.net/?article=20980
:super:

[saturnotaku]

<yawn>

Just more cheapshotting from the cheeseheads. ATI is no better than what they claim NVIDIA to be doing. Thanks ATI, please drive through.

[ragejg]

.

[Mr_LoL]

it was quite funny i though :D . remember nvidia did a similar stunt calling the r420 three year old technology so they are just as bad as each other

[aAv7]

it's a cheap shot, but at the same time, they didn't say anything that wasnt true.

[Daneel Olivaw]

I'd like to point out that this was most likely not done by ATI employees or representatives, and if it was, it would actually show desperation and fear of impending loss of some of the market.

[SH64]

it's a cheap shot, but at the same time, they didn't say anything that wasnt true.

Agreed .

[saturnotaku]

it's a cheap shot, but at the same time, they didn't say anything that wasnt true.

Seems that ATI is suffering from a case of extremely short-sighted self love with the TWIMTBP stuff. They seem to forget that Far Cry, Painkiller, Battle for Middle Earth and Doom 3 all fell under that umbrella. Well, maybe not for Doom 3 as a specific TWIMTBP title, but NVIDIA was pimping the 6-series for that game.

Further, NVIDIA may not lead in PCI-E products per-se, but at least they haven't neglected the AGP market. And 6800 Ultra cards are still plentiful to come by. Can't really say the same for the X800 XT-PE. Hell, I've seen more NVIDIA PCI-E cards (good ones like the 6600 GT and 6800) available at retail than anything ATI has - and they're available at somewhat more reasonable prices.

So let's not walk around like ATI's poo don't stink. Because it does, hardcore.

[circuitbreaker8]

Well I just switched from a 6800gt to a X800XT and I cant see myself going back to NV anytime soon ;)

[SH64]

Well I just switched from a 6800gt to a X800XT and I cant see myself going back to NV anytime soon ;)

And your point is ?

[saturnotaku]

Oh, and I don't want to quote myself, but go ahead and add UT2004 to the list of TWIMTBP titles that ATI wants you to believe don't exist.

[Razor1]

Oh, and I don't want to quote myself, but go ahead and add UT2004 to the list of TWIMTBP titles that ATI wants you to believe don't exist.


Lets add more to this one

Then there is ATI cheating and lieing about not use optimizations in thier AA and AF algos forgot about that one, and then telling hardware reviewers to turn off aa and af opts for nV's card.

I love the one when Valve has to proclaim thier own game is the hottest game out there :D. Would be nice if some else said that

hmm and there is a huge difference between sm 2.0 and 3.0 if the right shaders are made for 3.0. As much as a hardware review site like hardocp can talk about that it doesn't make a difference and buying into that ATI can do it all with sm 2.0b is more BS. sorry thats ps 2.0b seems like ATi forgot about the vertex shader part.....

So a few games are coming out with SM 3.0 after 1 year since the gf 6 line was release, love this one from the inquirer..... Someone should ask them if they don't want to see any of these Sm 3.0 games for another year after the r520 comes out?

Love it how 5 of the quotes were from the inquirer, couldn't they find any one else for those?

Oh yeah Tom's hardware compairing ATi's refresh with bumped up clock speeds to a card that was out close to a year ago even better what happened to the x800xt pe? Oh forgot where are they?

[Daneel Olivaw]

can of worms, can of worms :fanboy:

[T-Spoon]

Here's some food for thought... Can anyone point out which of the 12 points made are actually untrue without bashing one company or the other? And preferably with proof (when saying things like SM3.0 looks better and is faster than SM2.0b)?

[SH64]

Seeing the points raised there are only one sided , maybe we need to see some of ATi's "untruths" now :

1) ATi claimed that nVIDIA's bridge chip is a non-native solution & will cause lateny issues & they were wrong . becuase nVIDIA's PCI-E solutions passed the SIG test & now everyone is using them without troubles .

2) ATi denied the importance of SM3.0 & its features or anything more than SM2.0 ATM.. yet they are taking advantage of the geometery instancing which only can be done using SM2.0+/SM3.0 .
FarCry for exmaple .

3) ATi accused nVIDIA of using partical percision in Doom3 . non of that was correct or at least proved.

4) ATi called the 6600GT a "one trick pony" because its only faster than its competitor - the X700XT - in Doom3 .
that appeard to be incorrect when other benchmarks showed up .. & finally the X700XT got cancelled as some sources reported .

5) ATi promised to deliver thier X800 line of video cards after a month of its launch date yet its still hard to find an X800XT-PE anywhere .
i for one cant find a single X800XT or XT-PE in my countrey .. & oppsite of that i can find nVIDIA 6800Ultras available now in some places.

6) ATi disapproved nVIDIA's dual slot cooling solutions . now its being used in the X850 line .

Now i have to note that i agree only on some of the points raised there in that PDF , though i disagree with points : 3 , 7 , 9 :

for 3. which is about nvidia optimisations .. well since 3DMark2003 .. i didnt see anymore optimisations . most numbers i see are correct & represnet the actual IQ/Performance for any game/app used .

for 7. HL2 is hot but there are many other hot games like Doom3 , FarCry , Thief3 & an important new comer which is Chronicles of Riddick which is a TWIMTBP game .

for 9. this is a funny one & has no point because break ups do happen everywhere & its all about relations & condidtions . if someone broke with a well-known company that wont make it bad unless theres an obvious reasons for that break up & in this case we are not aware of whats gone wrong with Hercules to give that comment .

[|JuiceZ|]

(popcorn)

[saturnotaku]

for 7. HL2 is hot but there are many other hot games like Doom3 , FarCry , Thief3 & an important new comer which is Chronicles of Riddick which is a TWIMTBP game .

Speaking of Riddick, that brings up another point. ATI's OpenGL support (or lack thereof). After owning three X800 Pro cards, they still couldn't fix the gamma problems plaguing older OGL titles (except Quake 3).

With NVIDIA cards, the only OpenGL problems I've ever had were with Oni and MOHAA. And those were fixed when they incorporated the extension limit and game profiles.

And let's not even begin to discuss how the Linux community perceives ATI.

[Treason]

So thus we can conclude with finality that ATi realizes it is losing badly to nVidia and is pulling out dirty tricks?

[Razor1]

Here's some food for thought... Can anyone point out which of the 12 points made are actually untrue without bashing one company or the other? And preferably with proof (when saying things like SM3.0 looks better and is faster than SM2.0b)?


One instance I can say for sure sm 3.0 is faster then ps 2.0b is when using a 4 light shader, ps 2.0b can only do 3 lights per pass, when sm 3.0 can do 4.

Now with HDR sm 2.0b can't do true HDR, they used a bloom effect that can be done on PS 1.0 hardware if done right. Most effects can be done on pre sm 2.0 hardware just have to figure out the hack to make em work. Parrallex bump mapping can be done on ps 1.0 hardware but I have a program here which the company I'm working for will be releasing info on it soon, I'll keep ya posted on this. Also this program well render engine does HDR in sm 1.0 as well.

Where sm 3.0 comes in handy is when shader length limts are reached or require more then one pass. And ps 2.0b is useful for an interm to sm 3.0 but it lacks branching which is extremely usefully for shader that require more then one pass, like HDR, like soft stencil shadows, like soft shadow maps, like light scattering effects, (light scattering using PRT and LPRT can all be done in 2 passes with any sm 2.0 and up cards, PRT and LPRT also give softshadows for static and semi static objects for free, so it comes in fairly handy for ATi's ps 2.0b paths when everything can be done in 2 passes, but then again these effects only work for fairly static scenes). Next gen engines like Unreal 3 do use PRT and LPRT, but if ya want make a world that is truely interactive these types of effects won't work well, one reason we haven't added this into our engine because well quite frankly will hurt us in the long run, we can wait till something better comes along. Instead we have every object in the world casting soft shadow maps, which take 2 passes but with branching it is cut down to 1 pass, well sort of there is still a bit of a performance hit but instad of a 50% drop if all objects in the scene cast shadows its only like 10%. And light scattering is done in 2 passes.

Forgot PRT and LPRT also allow unlimited lights in a static or semistatic scene, we loose this but no problem because we don't want static or semistatic objects in our world. Plus there are alot of ways to fake lighting :)

So sm 3.0 helped us gain a good deal of performance in the lighting since we have 4 real lights in the scene instead of ps 2.0b with 3. givin that another light in ps 2.0b will take one more pass thats a 25% savings in power. Then about 40% savings for the soft shadow maps, of course we can hack soft shadows too so we get almost no hit from shadow maps but it doesn't look as good (the edges are a bit rougher).

There is always ways of making things work on lower end cards. All these effects can be done is software to make them work in hardware like an older gpu just have to find the trick and the shader must be highly optimized so it doesn't hurt older gpu's. So sm 3.0 gives the programmer benefits so they dont' need to spend time to find these tricks.

[Vagrant Zero]

List of reasons why ATI is teh suck...

Don't forget to add SLI to that list. ATI denounced it when it first came out yet now they're jumping on the bandwagon.

They're bandwagon bitches. :afro:

[Templar]

just LAME of ATi.

Simon

[Toss3]

I can't understand why ATi and Nvidia are acting like 6-year olds, mocking each other. They both have their good and their bad sides, but what I can't understand is that why you all worry so much about their sandbox quarrel? I for one just buy the card that gives me the best futures and the best performance. Don't care if they've done something bad in the past, just want the best card :)

[saturnotaku]

I for one just buy the card that gives me the best futures and the best performance. Don't care if they've done something bad in the past, just want the best card

As a student of marketing, I prefer to take the approach of having a company tell me why I should buy their products as opposed to having them them tell me why I shouldn't buy someone else's. The latter approach is more apt to get you called out for obvious double-talk and spreading things which are at best extreme stretches of the truth. It's also more liable to have you called out on things that you've done in the past. While this approach is apt to win over fanboys and people who otherwise don't know any better, it doesn't really do much to help you with people who are capable of thinking for themselves, which (not surprisingly) includes a whole heaping lot of people who participate on these forums. ;)

[interactive]

hit submit button once to many

[interactive]

As a student of marketing, I prefer to take the approach of having a company tell me why I should buy their products as opposed to having them them tell me why I shouldn't buy someone else's.

You sir, are a student of marketing with a short lived or selective memory! :eek: