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PaiN
02-07-05, 09:45 AM
The subject came up on another forum I'm in......
I was shocked at the level of disdain and borderline hostility by some people toward games(and thier owners) that charge a fee too play. Seems too me that these people think that somehow if they buy software for $30-$50, they are entitled to a lifetime of free play at the game makers expense. imo....this makes no sense what-so-ever, I don't(and can't) expect the game maker to buy, maintain and update servers while developing futher game content for free....I also think $10-$15\mo in very reasonable, far from the "gouge" someone called it. As long as I'm getting my money's worth, with a stable, fast connection and on-going, fun game play....I'm happy to pay.

What's your opinion?

*edit* in case its not clear...I'm talking about fees for MMOLGs

|MaguS|
02-07-05, 10:10 AM
I fully agree with P2P. Without the constant fee's they would not create a large income to substain the games evolution. If the game was without a fee it would basically end up like D2 with no additions and no patching (patches for D2 did release over a long period of times with still many issues unanswered). Also MMORPG's are cosntantly monitored, They ahve ingame customer service and out of the game customer servicers from phone, forum and email support.

The fee's of a MMORPG are basically in place to keep the game alive and active, without it will become nothing or go nowhere.

Expansion packs don't pay for support like many people believe, they pay for more expansion packs...

Tr1cK
02-07-05, 10:20 AM
I agree. If you like the game enough, you will definetly pay for it. Nobody is forced to play a game.

saturnotaku
02-07-05, 10:22 AM
Here's some very simple math. Let's assume a game like EQ costs $100 million to develop including programming, marketing, server costs, etc. That's an astronomically high figure considering HL2 reportedly is the most costly game ever developed and IIRC that was around $35 million from start to finish.

Let's say 1 million people buy the game in the first month it's out (statistics show that the vast majority of a game's sales take place in the first 3 weeks). At $50 a shot, and for the sake of arguement let's say half of that ends up in Sony's pocket. That's $25 million in just software sales. Put up $15 a month to play, that's $15 million a month in subscriber fees. You've just broken even after just 6 months (assuming the first month of play was free for the 1 million owners). In another 6 months you've made an additional $90 million in subscriber fees, which is just about what it cost you to develop the original game in the first place.

Again, this is an overly simplistic model, but I think that can help explain why some people aren't too keen on the idea of shelling out $15/month to play a game. I really doubt that people would have many objections to paying were the fees either lower or were they not increased, especially since so many freaking people are playing the game.

Zelda_fan
02-07-05, 11:02 AM
I've just started playing World of Warcraft and I love it. Yeah, you have to pay about $13 a month but it is really worth it becasue the game dosen't end after 20 hours. I think I beat HL2 in about 30 hours. After I beat it, I haven't touched it again. That's $55 for 30 hours. With World of Warcraft I paid $55 + $40 for a 3 month subscription (+ 1 free month). That's $95, and I've looked at my /played and it is around 160 hours. I've only played it for a month. Already, it's a better value than HL2, and I haven't even used my 1/3 of my subscription. If you look at the hours of gameplay per dollar, World of Warcraft is SOOO much of a better value.

|MaguS|
02-07-05, 11:05 AM
Considering that not even 1 Million sold never happens in a MMORPG, I highly dout that. Plus they are a business, NO Business is out to break even. They WANT to make a profit, WTF is the point if you don't? Do you know the amount Developers pay for Network and Maintanence fee's? Alot more then a million, they need to have someone up 24/7 to watch the servers and do maintenance plus they need to have the actuall network lines running all the time... They are probably running OC12 or OC48 lines to substaine the massive amounts of bandwidth.

Heres some shots of the servers for EQOA and FFXI (For the Playstation 2) imagine what the more successful PC versions require...
http://www.mmorpg.com/features/images/16_6.jpg http://www.mmorpg.com/features/images/16_7.jpg


Im honestly sick of people complaining that prices are too high, Development costs are up (New Technology requires more RD and More Employess often), If they don't have high prices then they break even and DONT MAKE A PROFIT.Thanks to MMORPG.com (http://www.mmorpg.com/gamelist.cfm/setview/features/gameID/2/loadFeature/9/page/1)

Rakeesh
02-07-05, 11:45 AM
Ok, heres what I don't like about MMORPGs.

First of all they require a constant commitment in order to be interesting. If you stop playing the game for a while because you got bored of it then you can lose track of where you were in the storyline, fall behind your peers in terms of leveling up, etc. You also end up wasting money on a game you aren't playing due to the monthly fees. If you quit paying the monthly fees for a time, then your character gets deleted entirely and you have to start all over.

Also, I don't know about the rest of you, but constantly leveling up and searching for those ever illusive items over and over and over again gets quite boring and ends up becoming a chore. There are better ways of spending time on chores, such as getting a job where you are actually paid money rather than paying somebody else money. Then theres also trying to keep up with those people who don't even have a job and after two weeks of playing bring themselves to "god" status, and brush their little ego all over you with l33tspeak names and other bullcrap.

Me, I would rather just play a game where you can get home from work/school/etc and just start playing a game. No need to worry about if your account is active what item you need to find next, what gay little quest is next, etc. You just sit down and play, thats it. I myself have been playing NS for years, ever since its initial release in fact, and it hasn't cost me a dime. Value wise, no MMORPG could ever touch that.

vampireuk
02-07-05, 11:45 AM
I've just started playing World of Warcraft and I love it. Yeah, you have to pay about $13 a month but it is really worth it becasue the game dosen't end after 20 hours. I think I beat HL2 in about 30 hours. After I beat it, I haven't touched it again. That's $55 for 30 hours. With World of Warcraft I paid $55 + $40 for a 3 month subscription (+ 1 free month). That's $95, and I've looked at my /played and it is around 160 hours. I've only played it for a month. Already, it's a better value than HL2, and I haven't even used my 1/3 of my subscription. If you look at the hours of gameplay per dollar, World of Warcraft is SOOO much of a better value.

QFT.

On Friday the European release of WOW happens and I will be playing that game non stop, after playing the final beta I can definately say it is well worth the monthly fee.

Edit: Alpha WOW is very different from most other games you will have played, I have never once found this game to be a chore to play.

Rakeesh
02-07-05, 11:53 AM
What is qft?

EDIT: Woa, 160 hours in a month? Damn, thats like 5 hours a day. Where do you get the time for that?

stncttr908
02-07-05, 12:04 PM
QFT = quoted for truth or quite f'ing true

I don't know, I don't have the time to ever make a MMORPG subscription worthwhile. Even if I did have the time, I'd probably lack the attention span or dedication. :D

|MaguS|
02-07-05, 12:35 PM
What is qft?

EDIT: Woa, 160 hours in a month? Damn, thats like 5 hours a day. Where do you get the time for that?

5 Hours a day is even easy for me if I wanted to play that much, and I have a Full time job and go to school Full/partime.

No MMORPG deletes characters right away (if at all) anymore, EQ did it during its first year but soon stopped. I remember my friend quit for half a year and returned to be greeted by his lvl 45 druid.

As for time commitment, eh make it what you will... Don't join a raiding "uber" guild unless you commit to it, just have fun. Im only lvl 25 in EQ2 because I try to go at a slower pace, Im jumping between other games and don't want to be caught in the high end so early. Its to quick of a pace at higher end anyway... you can never really appreciate the content if you burn through it.

I don't know where you get the god status and L33t speak from though, most End Game players are bery professional and usually very serious. In EQ1 I have yet to meet any End Game player who speaks l33t unless its in jest (I was in the 2nd most powerful guild in EQ1 on my server).

EciDemon
02-07-05, 12:39 PM
Lol i thogh QFT ment Quit feeding troll! *lol*

Zelda_fan
02-07-05, 01:15 PM
What is qft?

EDIT: Woa, 160 hours in a month? Damn, thats like 5 hours a day. Where do you get the time for that?

Monday - Friday I play about an hour a day, but on the weekends I play a lot more. Plus there are times I just leave my guy logged on, and walk off and do something else for an hour. Also, there are times I just sit in Ironforge and send my "profession macro" across the trade channel at a specific interval to try and sell stuff while I do homework. Actual real play time is probably a good bit less, but still, even if it was half that at 80 hours it would still be a better deal. Plus this is the first month I've ever played a MMORGP so I'm excited about it :).

Also, I can tell from your above comments you haven't played WoW. It is very much a different game where you can log off for a week, then come back and pick right back up like it was nothing.

superklye
02-07-05, 01:29 PM
I wouldn't have such a problem with paying a fee for an online game if they did one of the two:
First three months free ($50 for the game = just over 3 months of free time @ $15/mo)
Make the game a free download and charge immediately.

Paying $50 and getting a single month free is kinda like pissing in our faces...I don't think getting a single month free is all that good of an incentive to pay $50 for a game. Sorry, but that's just me.

Rakeesh
02-07-05, 02:49 PM
I don't know where you get the god status and L33t speak from though, most End Game players are bery professional and usually very serious. In EQ1 I have yet to meet any End Game player who speaks l33t unless its in jest (I was in the 2nd most powerful guild in EQ1 on my server).

Not literally using the l33t speak (except in their names where they use those little gay non alphanumeric characters) but the overall behavior that they are Muhammed Imar Bruce Lee. Every mmorpg I have played is just full of them.

With a game like NS you can just go to a different server and the game is no different. With an mmorpg you can't, not unless you want to start over.

I wouldn't have such a problem with paying a fee for an online game if they did one of the two:
First three months free ($50 for the game = just over 3 months of free time @ $15/mo)
Make the game a free download and charge immediately.

Paying $50 and getting a single month free is kinda like pissing in our faces...I don't think getting a single month free is all that good of an incentive to pay $50 for a game. Sorry, but that's just me.

Yeah that is whats especially annoying. Also, if HL1 were priced like an mmorpg, I would have paid over a thousand dollars by now.

Edge
02-07-05, 03:00 PM
To an extent I agree that fees are necissary for online games which require huge amounts of servers, support personel, and GMs, but at the same time it seems like they're just charging rediculous amounts for the sake of making more money. For these types of games, I think $5-$10 would be a more reasonable amount, and based on what I've seen they'd still be making a healthy profit off of it. There are even free MMORPG servers out there, and MMOs like Guild Wars and now Anarchy Online have no monthly fee, so obviously it's not a TOTAL impossibility for developers to find cheap ways to keep the game running.

However, what I WOULD like to see for these types of games is the ability to play them WITHOUT paying a monthly fee, but limiting the amount of time you can play to around 30 hours each month (or maybe just to an hour each day). Then, for those who want to play more, offer a monthly fee to play the game an unlimited amount of hours. That way, your initial $50 doesn't go to waste after you stop paying a monthly fee, casual players who wouldn't pay for it anyway would still be occasionally hop on and see what's new, and the developers themselves have an encouragement to actually make the game worthwhile enough to make people want to play it more than the "default" aloted time. Plus, it would give people who stopped playing the game a chance to check it out again later after a couple of patches to see if they added enough to rekindle their interest in it (almost like an extended demo). To me, this would be a great solution: no losing characters when you stop paying for the game, no needing to download new demos or needing to re-buy the game to check out any new features, and most importantly your $50 "investment" doesn't go to waste after the first month.

The other thing I would like to see is a "MMO game pass" where you could play ANY MMORPG on the market by paying a single monthly fee. Obviously, this is practically an imposibility since few MMORPG developers even achnoledge that other MMORPGs exist, let alone work with them, but I think this would encourage a LOT more people to check out MMORPGs. For example: the main MMORPGs I've played that I really bothered to put time into are Earth and Beyond, Planetside, and Anarchy Online (for this example, lets pretend E&B isn't shut down and AO isn't free for the non-expansion packed version). Now I liked all of them, but there was no way in hell I was going to pay $13 to $15 a month for each of them, so I never paid a dime for them after the first month. But, if they offered some package deal where I could play any MMORPG I owned for $30 a month, I'd probably be willing to pay it. Just having the freedom to play whatever game I want, when I want, is worth the extra cost for me. The developers can split the earnings based on how many hours each MMO is played. And it wouldn't even cost the developers any extra money, since a single person can only be playing ONE MMO at any given time, and therefor they wouldn't have to pay any extra for servers or GMs than they normally do. SOE has a small-scale program similar to that, except it only includes Planetside, Everquest, and a few lesser-known games. If you want to play Starwars Galaxies...whoops, you have to pay ANOTHER fee for that! So basically they expect you to pay $35 a month to pretty much play their 3 big multiplayer games online...not exactly a popular option. If SWG was part of their all-game pass, I think a LOT more people would jump on it.

Edit: forgive any spelling or grammar mistakes, mornings are not a good time for me (of course, my definition of "morning" starts at noon).

|MaguS|
02-07-05, 03:01 PM
AO is practically dead, thats the main reason its free (doing it to attract more users, if you read the agreement if too many people sign up they have the right to start charging)... Guild Wars is not an MMO so it shouldnt be compared.

saturnotaku
02-07-05, 03:07 PM
Guild Wars is not an MMO so it shouldnt be compared.

Expansive worlds, buttloads of people in the universe, guilds/clans, combat adventures...maybe it's not an RPG in the true sense of the word, but it sure as hell is massively multiplayer online. Guild Wars servers require maintenance and bandwidth just like Everquest. They're no different in that regard.

Edit: Edge, I love the idea you proposed about imposing a time limit. I probably would have picked up something like E&B or Planetside if they had a system like you suggested. What a great idea. :thumbsup:

Rakeesh
02-07-05, 03:08 PM
That is another thing, I am a casual player and usually I don't play games more than 10 hours a week (with some exceptions, e.g. during the winter when theres nothing else to do for the season.) MMORPG's seem designed for people who play games more than 100 hours a month.

E&B was a good one, I didn't want to pay the monthly fees for it though so I stopped playing (I have never paid a dime for any MMORPG btw, I have only done beta tests.) If they sold it to me for say $40 and gave a cap of like 20 hours a month I would have been perfectly content with the game.

Also another thing, I tend to like player vs player combat, but thus far most MMORPGs seriously lack a worthwhile pvp component. (I am more of the fighting type than the "lets explore the world and see what strange items we can find" type)

|MaguS|
02-07-05, 03:25 PM
Expansive worlds, buttloads of people in the universe, guilds/clans, combat adventures...maybe it's not an RPG in the true sense of the word, but it sure as hell is massively multiplayer online. Guild Wars servers require maintenance and bandwidth just like Everquest. They're no different in that regard.

Im guessing you haven't played the game yet, THe Expansive worls are nothing more then "missions" once completed you return to town (lobby). Buttloads of people only happen in town which are still limited to below 100 (think around 50), in the mission area you can only expore with 4 people or battle our with 2 or 3 teams... thats not massive at all...

Guild/Clans happen in EVERY online game, can they too be considered MMO's then?

Guild Wars is NOTHING more then a Diablo 2 type game with a graphic INGAME lobby and a few extra features. Its no where near as massive or OPEN as EQ/WoW/AO or any other MMORPG. Guild Wars is running on Arena.net... not a closed Network like a MMORPG, consider it like Battle.net.

Guild Wars is a Competitive Online Role-Playing Game, Not a Massive Mulitplayer Online Role-Playing Game.

Zelda_fan
02-07-05, 03:38 PM
That is another thing, I am a casual player and usually I don't play games more than 10 hours a week (with some exceptions, e.g. during the winter when theres nothing else to do for the season.) MMORPG's seem designed for people who play games more than 100 hours a month.

Also another thing, I tend to like player vs player combat, but thus far most MMORPGs seriously lack a worthwhile pvp component. (I am more of the fighting type than the "lets explore the world and see what strange items we can find" type)

I really encourage you to check out World of Warcraft. At least get the free month. WoW is designed for people who play under 10 hours a week as well. They have things like "rest" where if you log off in an inn you will get double XP when you log back on, so players who dont' play that much can advance quickly. Also, World of Warcrafts PvP system is very very well disgned and balanced. It's all about HOW you play your class (as opposed to what your class is) that determines your success in PvP. They are also comming out with this thing called "battlegrounds" which are basically epic PvP wars. Loads of fun.

Rakeesh
02-07-05, 04:04 PM
I really encourage you to check out World of Warcraft. At least get the free month. WoW is designed for people who play under 10 hours a week as well. They have things like "rest" where if you log off in an inn you will get double XP when you log back on, so players who dont' play that much can advance quickly. Also, World of Warcrafts PvP system is very very well disgned and balanced. It's all about HOW you play your class (as opposed to what your class is) that determines your success in PvP. They are also comming out with this thing called "battlegrounds" which are basically epic PvP wars. Loads of fun.

Well, the free month costs $45.

killahsin
02-07-05, 04:22 PM
About the 40 million for hl2. Thats more r&d for technologies within source, forward and backward capabilities. Rather than designing hl2.

vampireuk
02-07-05, 04:34 PM
Guildwars sucks compared to WOW, also I've joined a guild in WOW. They are semi serious, you can take part in large raids where you have to do exactly what you are told to do otherwise the damn thing fails. Or you can run around and get help with your quests from fellow guild members.

Zelda_fan
02-07-05, 04:48 PM
Well, the free month costs $45.

well if you insist on looking at it from that angle then you will never be able to enjoy a great game. The game and the free month cost $45.

It's just that a MMORPG offers so much more than any other game I have played. I don't think I've ever played an offline game that has a world even 1/5th the size of WoW. Morrowind was the closest, but World of Warcraft is freaking enoumous. The game has so many different things to do, and different aspects to master, it stays a new game for months upon month. For me, games get real old the second after I beat them. It is RARE that I will ever replay a FPS once I've beaten it. I mean what's the point after I've already beaten it? Now I will admit things like Unreal 2k4 I like becasuse you can't master after playing online once. Yeah, you can replay HL 50 times, but to me that is just boring. I need something new, so WoW is right up my alley.

For me the choice is this: either buy a new game every month (most of which I finish in 5 days max) for $50 a month, or I can play $13 a month for a game that will never get old. When it get's old, I will quit, but I don't see that happening for at least 6 months.

You really *ought* to at least try the game before saying MMORPGs aren't for you. Just give it a shot, and if you don't like it, cancel your subscription.