R350 Spring, R400 Summer

[Nv40]

If they have to use a dustbuster with heatpipes to cool the GPU now... Bigus had a good observation... what are they going to have to do for the next speed bump? Pelt? Or are they going to .09m for the NV35?

if i tell you that it is possible to release
and nv35 with 30%-50% faster than the Nv30 without
the DUstbuster with less heat in the same .13 process will you believe this?


there are many ways ,many to reduce the heat without too much
power consumption and die process is just one way.
hand tweaking the design or using diferent materials are just
a few examples . also when you have plenty of time you can do wonders in your process.

ATI got plenty of time ,much much and much more than Nvidia ,alot more . they released near none new product since the radeon2 lineup early in 2001 . remember that a few products
ATi released later like the FIreGl pro cards and the Gamecube
chip were already finished by others.

Nvidia released the the Geforce3 lineup ,Gefroce3ti500,
,the Xbox sound/graphic chip /the profesional QuadroDDC
lineup and finally the Geforce4 lineup early in this year!!
did i miss something ? -> the Nforce2 chipset. :)

things that took many resources and engineers hours
to Nvidia , all that before the Nv30.

(something that really helped Nvidia to increase their market share and to increase their $$$ and that will surely pay in the long run too)

all that , when ATI was working quietly wihout distractions
fulltime in the R300 without near nothing else to do than that
,the R300 ,something to think about .

but im really sure that even with all those challenges and tight
schedule of things to do ,with all that much less time , Nvidia will surely will be delivering the Nv30 ,for a fall release , if it were not for the TSMC problems with .13 process.

so before posting in other Forums about the superiority and amazing release cycles and schedules of ATI , know first at least
what things other companies have done in the past . :rolleyes:

[Mono]

ATi has designed a couple motherboar chipsets too :p (nothing spectacular yet, but thier p4 DDR2 board is rumoreded to be a beast... ;;shrugs;; )

[tamattack]

Excuse me???

Originally posted by Nv40
if i tell you that it is possible to release and nv35 with 30%-50% faster than the Nv30 without the DUstbuster with less heat in the same .13 process will you believe this?

Yes, I believe this.

Originally posted by Nv40
ATI got plenty of time ,much much and much more than Nvidia ,alot more . they released near none new product since the radeon2 lineup early in 2001 . remember that a few products ATi released later like the FIreGl pro cards and the Gamecube chip were already finished by others.

Huh??? You've skipped a few things here. Assuming Radeon 2 = R8500, then there is also their chipsets (4 versions of the northbridge + southbridge), Radeon 9000, Mobile Radeon 9000. This is not counting stuff like FireGL nor Gamecube.

Originally posted by Nv40
Nvidia released the the Geforce3 lineup ,Gefroce3ti500, the Xbox sound/graphic chip /the profesional QuadroDDC lineup and finally the Geforce4 lineup early in this year!! did i miss something ? -> the Nforce2 chipset. :)

GF3 was before the R8500. GF3Ti was more or less at same time as R8500. Quadro is no different than FireGL for ATI. Therefore, since R8500, there was only GF4, GF4MX and nforce2 (which by the way was only released in quantity in the past month, post R9700).

Originally posted by Nv40
things that took many resources and engineers hours to Nvidia , all that before the Nv30.

Ditto for ATI.

Originally posted by Nv40
(something that really helped Nvidia to increase their market share and to increase their $$$ and that will surely pay in the long run too)

That's a matter of opinion.

Originally posted by Nv40
all that , when ATI was working quietly wihout distractions fulltime in the R300 without near nothing else to do than that, the R300 ,something to think about.

See above re: chipsets, R9000 and mobile R9000.

removed unnecessarily snide remark on my part - sorry

[Nv40]

Originally posted by Nv40
(something that really helped Nvidia to increase their market share and to increase their $$$ and that will surely pay in the long run too)
----------------------------------

That's a matter of opinion.


is a matter of FAct,
20% of the cash of Nvidia come from the Xbox chip .
what i call easy money .wanna bet who is going to design
the Xbox2 chip?

Nvidia now have more than 53% of the total market share ,while ATI have 35% more or less.. and surprisingly even when
the radeon9700pro release Nvidia increased its market share..
the great success of of the Geforce3 and Geforce4 lineup
really slowed ATI sales.. it is clear to everyone that ATI was
in a dangerous position this year ,that another mistake in their next product (the r300) could cost another 20% of the market share...

Huh??? You've skipped a few things here. Assuming Radeon 2 = R8500, then there is also their chipsets (4 versions of the northbridge + southbridge), Radeon 9000, Mobile Radeon 9000. This is not counting stuff like FireGL nor Gamecube

nope..i disagree.. read again my post...
Ati bought the ARTx team the designers of the
gamecube graphic chip -> (when it was finished.) ....period.
this was confirmed by ATi ..
saying that ATI designed the gamecupe chip
is the same as saying that Nvidia designed
the Voodoo1/2/3/5 graphics boards..

to compete with Nvidia in the Profesional market ...
ATi bought the FIreGl company (which existed for many years
before ATI bought them ). somewhere last year or abit earlier.

and i know that ATi works with chipset too for along time,
but cant remember of any one released in the last year..-> AFTER the radeon2 release date .

and nope the Quadro4 lineup is not the same design that the Geforce4 ,its have a few extra hardware and features..
like antialiasing lines and hardware overlane planes and couple of more things usefull in the Profesional market.
with higher memory and core clock.. nothing like
a totally new architecture but more like a Geforce4 ultra
with interesting new features..
and they released 3-4 lineup of quadro boards!
and those things takes times too .. also some quadros support up to 4 monitors!! with very high frecuencies.. at least this time Nvidia designed more than a gaming card with special drivers .
in the quadro4.


also Nvidia entirely designed MANy many things in the Xbox ,that took resources and many engineers to Nvidia . graphicchip/sound
chip /memory controler /chipset and god know what else ,
if i remember well it took close to 1 year to Nvidia from start
to end.

this is not saying that ATI deserve less merit , than they deserve,
but only saying that Nvidia have been busy 2x-3x times more than
ATi since the Geforce3 release.. and even with all the busy schedule ,they designed and RE-designed a very complex chip
to work with in a dificult .13 process..

[tamattack]

Originally posted by Nv40
is a matter of FAct

I meant that it's a matter of opinion that it "will surely pay in the long run too". Unless you can see the future, that's just your opinion.

Originally posted by Nv40
nope..i disagree.. read again my post... Ati bought the ARTx team the designers of the gamecube graphic chip -> (when it was finished.) ....period. this was confirmed by ATi .. saying that ATI designed the gamecupe chip is the same as saying that Nvidia designed the Voodoo1/2/3/5 graphics boards..

Actually, we agreed on this. I specifically said "This is not counting stuff like FireGL nor Gamecube". See the part where I say "not counting"?

Originally posted by Nv40
and i know that ATi works with chipset too for along time, but cant remember of any one released in the last year..-> AFTER the radeon2 release date.

ATI's 4 northbridge chipsets and their southbridge chipset were announced in spring 2002, shipped in summer 2002. That's well after the Radeon 8500 release date, which was in 2001.

Originally posted by Nv40
and nope the Quadro4 lineup is not the same design that the Geforce4 ,its have a few extra hardware and features.. like antialiasing lines and hardware overlane planes and couple of more things usefull in the Profesional market. with higher memory and core clock.. nothing like a totally new architecture but more like a Geforce4 ultra with interesting new features.. and they released 3-4 lineup of quadro boards! and those things takes times too .. also some quadros support up to 4 monitors!! with very high frecuencies.. at least this time Nvidia designed more than a gaming card with special drivers .
in the quadro4.

That's besides the point. What I said was "Quadro is no different than FireGL for ATI". Quadro is NV's pro workstation product which is based on a current consumer grapics chip. FireGL is ATI's pro workstation product which is based on a current consumer graphics chip. If you count Quadro as some sort of engineering achievement, then you also have to count FireGL as some sort of engineering achievement.

Oh and don't reply with this:

Originally posted by Nv40
to compete with Nvidia in the Profesional market ... ATi bought the FIreGl company (which existed for many years before ATI bought them ). somewhere last year or abit earlier.

Because, yes, I know that ATI bought FireGL. I know that FireGL existed for years and years. Before ATI bought them, they never used an ATI chip as the basis for any of their products. It is only since ATI bought them that they have converted to ATI chips. This is not the same as Artx/Gamecube where the product was already done before ATI bought them... In terms of the ATI-based FireGL products, there were none before ATI bought them. All the time and engineering resources that went into these products was by ATI employees (ie: FireGL employees post ATI-takeover).

Originally posted by Nv40
also Nvidia entirely designed MANy many things in the Xbox ,that took resources and many engineers to Nvidia. graphicchip/sound chip /memory controler /chipset and god know what else , if i remember well it took close to 1 year to Nvidia from start to end.

Maybe so, but the Xbox chips were released to fab in February 2001, well before Radeon 8500 was released. Since you're only talking about products introduced since Radeon 8500, Xbox doesn't count.


Originally posted by Nv40
this is not saying that ATI deserve less merit , than they deserve, but only saying that Nvidia have been busy 2x-3x times more than ATi since the Geforce3 release.. and even with all the busy schedule ,they designed and RE-designed a very complex chip to work with in a dificult .13 process..

Look, I'm not questioning NV's engineering achievements. But you said:

Originally posted by Nv40
when ATI was working quietly wihout distractions fulltime in the R300 without near nothing else to do than that, the R300.

Which is quite simply wrong. In fact, let's list the products introduced by each since Radeon 8500/GF3Ti:

NV: GF4Ti, Quadro variant of GF4Ti, GF4MX, mobile GF4MX, GF4Ti with AGP 8x, mobile GF4Ti, nForce 2, GFFX (introduced, but not yet shipping)

ATI: FireGL variant of R8500, R9000, mobile R9000, mobile FireGL variant of R9000, Radeon IGP/IXP (chipsets), Imageon (handhelds), R9700/9500, All-in-Wonder R9700, FireGL variant of R9700

Even if we cut it down to just major architecture releases and exclude all of the variants, then we have:

NV: GF4, GF4MX, nForce2, GFFX

ATI: R9000, Radeon IGP/IXP, Imageon, R9700

So you see, it's just plain silly to say that NV engineers have been 2x-3x times more busy than ATI since R8500/GF3Ti release.

[Bigus Dickus]

Another fanboy trying to excuse nVidia for being late with the GFFX?

Sheesh. :rolleyes:

[Joe DeFuria]

please excuse the ameturish hack job... ;)

http://www.defuria.com/misc/nvidialogo2.jpg

[borntosoul]

too many things on one plate dont make the main dish that great to eat ,unless your a big slob and will eat anything ,that would happen to anyone company dont matter who it is

[borntosoul]

why wait for a damn card when you could go out and do something more productive with your lives (i been waiting too until something hit me that said WAKE THE @@@@ UP) that was my girlfriends shoe,but i still enjoy reading these forums ====> sad i know , ive been put off by all this waiting so i might not be getting the card anymore ,happens to me sometimes, ive just gone off the boil

[Nv40]

NV: GF4Ti, Quadro variant of GF4Ti, GF4MX, mobile GF4MX, GF4Ti with AGP 8x, mobile GF4Ti, nForce 2, GFFX (introduced, but not yet shipping)

ATI: FireGL variant of R8500, R9000, mobile R9000, mobile FireGL variant of R9000, Radeon IGP/IXP (chipsets), Imageon (handhelds), R9700/9500, All-in-Wonder R9700, FireGL variant of R9700



Even if we cut it down to just major architecture releases and exclude all of the variants, then we have:

NV: GF4, GF4MX, nForce2, GFFX

ATI: R9000, Radeon IGP/IXP, Imageon, R9700

So you see, it's just plain silly to say that NV engineers have been 2x-3x times more busy than ATI since R8500/GF3Ti release.




sorry but cant understand your logic there...
your are cutting down conveniently the Geforce3Ti series
that are designed with new materials that produce less
heat with higher core clock and frequencies..
which was released 8 months later than Geforce3 ..
because is a refresh.even a Geforce2Ti was in the package! in the new process..also cutting down the QUadro3DDC boards entire lineup ,based on the Geforce3 . also the cutting down the
Xbox chip which was released in the same time frame as geforce3.

whether you agree or not with the move is a matter of opinion
the market share Nvidia stole ATI with the Geforce3/and Geforce3Ti lineup says it all.


and you are comparing the timeframe of ATI radeon9xxx line up gaming/profesional.. directX 9 cards ,
with the timeframe of Geforce4 gaming/profesional line up!
DirectX8 cards... ?

which by the way ATI has not finished yet to release .
R9700? R9500pro- released last week? the FIreGL versions
of the r300 ?

mmm. dont you think that without the TSMC big problems with
.13 process ,Nvidia will surely be releasing the NV30 wihout delays for a fall relasease as their originally schedule?
against the RAdeon9xxx lineup ? which by the way most of the
lineup is starting to ship just in this month.

no matter.. people will always see what they want to see.

anyone saying that Nvdia have not been releasing
Much much more products , pushing more the technology
in the same timeframe as ATI since the GEforce3 and
even more since the TNT products. it just simply denying the
FACts and the reality.

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by Joe DeFuria
please excuse the ameturish hack job... ;)

http://www.defuria.com/misc/nvidialogo2.jpg

good one:D

[Uttar]

Hehe, good one Joe.
But I really think the following would have looked better:
"The Way It's Meant To Be Delayed"
Would be harder to change the image to say that maybe, but it would be really funny. nVidia bragging about knowing how to delay thing right :D

In case anyone might misinterpret this, no, this doesn't mean I'm losing faith in nVidia. I just think we should rather laugh on how the NV30 was delayed, but hope for a brighter future with better cards from both ATI and nVidia.


Uttar

[Joe DeFuria]

But I really think the following would have looked better:
"The Way It's Meant To Be Delayed"

Hehee...

http://defuria.com/misc/nvidialogo3.jpg

[tamattack]

Originally posted by Nv40
it just simply denying the FACts and the reality.

I give up. It's obvious that I am no match for your superior abilities to ignore the facts that I have presented. Thanks for not making any sense.

[Mono]

Originally posted by tamattack
I give up. It's obvious that I am no match for your superior abilities to ignore the facts that I have presented. Thanks for not making any sense.

heh

[borntosoul]

http://www.xbitlabs.com/video/radeon9700pro-overclocking/
check this out ,for all you who told me a faster core wouldnt mean anything this is for you !

[Lezmaka]

Originally posted by borntosoul
http://www.xbitlabs.com/video/radeon9700pro-overclocking/
check this out ,for all you who told me a faster core wouldnt mean anything this is for you !

A faster core really doesn't mean much. On average, you probably get a little over a 10% increase from a 25% increase in clock speed.

Just moving the memory from 620 to 800 (almost 30% increase) has an even smaller effect on performance.

Only when you overclock both do you get a decent increase.

[StealthHawk]

Originally posted by tamattack
I give up. It's obvious that I am no match for your superior abilities to ignore the facts that I have presented. Thanks for not making any sense.

you have to respect people who know that they're talking to a wall.

oh and, great images Joe :)

[tamattack]

Thx for your comment, StealthHawk. ;)

And yes, nice job, Joe DeFuria. :D

[sbp]

click me (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/member2.php?s=&action=addlist&userlist=ignore&userid=556)

[PreservedSwine]

Originally posted by Joe DeFuria
Hehee...

http://defuria.com/misc/nvidialogo3.jpg

Joe, I hope you don't mind, but I linked your image over at Rage3D- too funny!

If you want it removed, just let me know:)

http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?s=&postid=1331607140#post1331607140

[Joe DeFuria]

That's OK for now...but you could at least spell my name correctly in the credits at Rage3D. ;)

Joe DeFuria

[PreservedSwine]

*DOH!*

[tazdevl]

Originally posted by Nv40
so before posting in other Forums about the superiority and amazing release cycles and schedules of ATI , know first at least
what things other companies have done in the past . :rolleyes:

Psst, I'm playing devils advocate and I'd be a little less suspect of bias in your posts if you had a different nick. If you can't handle negative posts about nVIDIA, maybe you shouldn't be on the forums. The majority of your post makes zero sense.

I'm knocking nVIDIA for some bad business decisions (due diligence wasn't where it should have been and now they're trying to save face) and an over-engineered cooling solution. I and everyone else that reads similar forums is quite familiar with nVIDIA's product release schedule.

G... I do believe they can engineer the next round, but the question is, will TSMC be able to get things going or will there be another delay?