Everquest 2 high end system verses WoW high end system..

[seliris]

This is the funniest thread I have ever read. People use game play as a means to argue engine performance?

To even compare EverQuest 2's engine API with World of Warcraft... LOL.

You can argue over game play all you want but just look at the features that both engines can utilize. I'm sorry but that was just too funny. I leave you to your forum.

[Vagrant Zero]

WoW has one huge flaw in it and its name is Iron Forge. The IF lock up KILLS ME! I wish they could link another AH to spread the population over two areas. Put one in SW by the bank but does Blizzard listen to me? NOOOooooo...

They listened...though it took em a year.

[killahsin]

Umm no, in a MMORPG your CPU is not doing the math during combat. Its would be too open to hacking. All your PC does is tell the server "okay, I am attacking this person now". And server goes through all the process of determining when each sword swipe or arrow twang is done, what damage is rolled, how much damage is reduced to armor resistance etc. Your PC basically just sits back and reports the numbers as it gets them from the server. Seeing you char actually swing his sword or shoot an arrow is just mindless graphical effect added on top.

Also, I don't know what EQ2 is like, but with WoW most of the world is static, its all just part of the map. Only a few things like NPCs and player chars actually move, and there is no collision detection on them. E.g. you can't drop a box infront of an NPC and watch him kick it or walk around it. Infact in WoW you can stand infront of an NPC or player and he will just walk straight through you.

There is a network bottleneck when you are in a city with hundreds of players and NPCs around you. The server has to update you with their location several times a second. This is probably why most NPCs in cities don't move. Still, network lag should not affect your framerate. They should be in different threads and independant processes. E.g. in a high load situation you should expect to see characters move in a jerky manner, but you can still rotate your FoV and look around the world with a good framerate.

Quoted for truth.
EQ2 on the other hand is very gpu and cpu limited due to the nature of its coding. What dave touches on is a big problem for most mmo develoeprs. Especially those using new 3d engines. The framerate issue also has alot to do with the way mmo's pre-draw everything behind buildings even if you can't see them. Silly things like database issues, that cause cache lag which eats your memory/swap/hd due to dbase flagging of characters in your vicinities inventory. In EQ2 of course many of the npc's in the cities move around. Designing mmos is so complex most don't understand what they are getting into until they hit closed beta and double digit thousands kill their network and servers, and expose fundemental database flaws. This is one of the main reasons wow had such a long beta period. Wow from closed beta to release, is basically 2 completly different games.

[angshuman]

... mmo's pre-draw everything behind buildings even if you can't see them.
Why is that?

[killahsin]

I dunno unreal engine does it too so...It's just a engine thing. But most mmos prefer doing it because of the fact that mobs can aggro from behind architecture u can't see and so forth,a nd the dataabse back end on equipment on players u can't see. Plus the fov rendering method might cause alot of problems if a group of 2000 chars decides to run by you from behidn a building outside your fov.

[Tygerwoody]

Why is that?
Pathing issues


There are alot of exploits that you can take advantage if mobs cannot see behind walls. I know (xmasgrin)

[MrSavoy]

WoW will be changing the AH from IF only to several different major cities to limit the load on IF. It's supposed to come in a patch real soon from what I understand.

[jolle]

Pathing issues


There are alot of exploits that you can take advantage if mobs cannot see behind walls. I know (xmasgrin)
but then again, shouldnt AI, run on the server, be working independant of what the renderer is pulling up on screen.. I mean the geometry is still there, both on your computer and at the server, even if the renderer draws it or not..
Occlusion culling shouldnt cause any problems in a MMO id think.. but then again I dont really know hehe..

Anyhow, WOW is pretty simple in terms of graphics, but the style of it is amazing IMO..
I cant get enough of the enviroments in WOW, and maybe it looks soo good in my eyes cause it isnt trying to look real, its closer to a cartoonish style.. while EQ2 is doing more of a effort to look real, and thus suffers a bit since it really cant...
dunno, EQ2 definatly has better and more advanced graphics, no doubt, but I think WOW looks "better" on the whole.. (worth mention is Ive played WOW, but only seen EQ2 on screens and video clips)

[Tygerwoody]

but then again, shouldnt AI, run on the server, be working independant of what the renderer is pulling up on screen.. I mean the geometry is still there, both on your computer and at the server, even if the renderer draws it or not..
Occlusion culling shouldnt cause any problems in a MMO id think.. but then again I dont really know hehe..

Anyhow, WOW is pretty simple in terms of graphics, but the style of it is amazing IMO..
I cant get enough of the enviroments in WOW, and maybe it looks soo good in my eyes cause it isnt trying to look real, its closer to a cartoonish style.. while EQ2 is doing more of a effort to look real, and thus suffers a bit since it really cant...
dunno, EQ2 definatly has better and more advanced graphics, no doubt, but I think WOW looks "better" on the whole.. (worth mention is Ive played WOW, but only seen EQ2 on screens and video clips)
EQ2 is absolutely breathtaking if you can get smooth frames... but in case you haven't noticed.... thats the whole problem :lol:

[angshuman]

but then again, shouldnt AI, run on the server, be working independant of what the renderer is pulling up on screen.. I mean the geometry is still there, both on your computer and at the server, even if the renderer draws it or not.. Occlusion culling shouldnt cause any problems in a MMO id think.. but then again I dont really know hehe..

Yes, that was pretty much what I was wondering too...


Anyhow, WOW is pretty simple in terms of graphics, but the style of it is amazing IMO.. I cant get enough of the enviroments in WOW, and maybe it looks soo good in my eyes cause it isnt trying to look real, its closer to a cartoonish style.. while EQ2 is doing more of a effort to look real, and thus suffers a bit since it really cant... dunno, EQ2 definatly has better and more advanced graphics, no doubt, but I think WOW looks "better" on the whole.. (worth mention is Ive played WOW, but only seen EQ2 on screens and video clips)
I agree... although my intense, passionate, and borderline maniacal hatred for Sony could be interfering with my objective reasoning abilities. :angel:

[Sgt_Pitt]

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pittinc1/EQ2_000087.jpg

heh wow may have more users, but eq2 is far more superior in all aspects

[Edge]

Ugh, what a perfect example of how screenshots should be taken with anisotropic (and some AA would've helped). The textures look like a blurry mess in that screenshot.

But I've always said that EQ2 has some great technology behind it (feature-wise, anyway), but terrible art design. They took an engine with extremely advanced rendering capabilities (performance issues aside), and more or less slacked off when it came to putting things into it. It certainly has it's moments, but overall it ended up looking worse than it should've. Just for the sake of it, here's a random comparision shot between EQ2 and another game with a similar setting and character designs. Technology aside, which one is aesthetically more attractive? And I'm not even going to mention what system was running the game on the left.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/attachment.php?attachmentid=15201&stc=1&d=1135236602

[aop]

Post bigger pics. Left looks better because the character looks much more realistic. What game is on the left side?

[angshuman]

But I've always said that EQ2 has some great technology behind it (feature-wise, anyway)...
See, that's what I've been trying to point out all this while -- simply cramming all of the latest shader effects into your engine does NOT make it a good engine.

Give me a couple of books, a bunch of internet articles, and a couple of reference manuals, and *I* could write an engine with 10000-instruction dynamic branching shaders to implement parallax mapping, motion blur, depth of field, high-dynamic range lighting, and dynamic soft-shadowing. Of course, I will not have the time, energy or inclination to implement any forms of optimization. Occlusion culling? BSP trees? What's that?

The engine will have 3 quality levels:

1. Standard: All effects on. You will need at least a GeForce Eleventeenhundred GT-XXX 1TB in order to be able to run at this quality setting. You don't have one? Too bad, you don't deserve to play this game. What? Nvidia hasn't designed one of those yet?!?? Bad, bad business sense. Well, it looks like this setting can only be played on future graphics cards.

2. Very Low: Only dynamic shadows and normal mapping on. You will need at least a Quad-SLI GeForce 7800GTX 512MB system in order to run it.

3. Ultra Uber n00b Low: All effects off. Vertex lighting only, and sorry, no lightmaps either, this engine is too advanced to be able to support Quake3-style lightmaps on a current-gen graphics card. You will be able to run this smoothly on a 7800GT at 640x480 with no AA/AF, but of course it will look like crap since this engine is way too advanced for your hardware to handle.

After that, all I'll have to do is put in some spyware code inside the engine that installs rootkits all over the user's hard drive, and lo and behold! Sony Online Entertainment is ready to purchase my game!

[Sgt_Pitt]

yeah my settings werent even on high, and btw eq2 doesnt install any rootkit, they were taken from Sony Music CD's.

And yeah the picture on the left looks like a blurred mess of ****e

My PC couldnt run eq2 on max settings anyway, but i can still turn em up for screenies.

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pittinc1/EQ2_000094.jpg

[angshuman]

... btw eq2 doesnt install any rootkit, they were taken from Sony Music CD's.

I know that. I was just trying to increase the value proposition of *my* engine by including a built-in rootkit installer for free. Sony would love that.

[Sgt_Pitt]

anyway my pictures posted = WoW pwnt, its really strange being on a video card forum and most people prefer WoW a more simple looking game, compared to EQ2 which will bring your rig to its knees.

I guess some people prefer simple games, Me i prefer complex ones

[|MaguS|]

Neither are really complex in any manner other then art and graphics, gameplay wise they are both pathetic and simple as the other. EQ1, L2 and DAOC have the most depth out of all MMOs available.

EQ2 has a great engine but SOE lacks the art team behind it, and the opposite can be said about WOW and Blizzard. Awsome art but their engine is only a slightly bit better then EQ1s (and even lacks some features that has been added to EQ1).

And before anyone calls me a fanboi of either I played them both and was a HUGE supporter of EQ2 before and during its early days.

[killahsin]

Er i think eq2 has more depth then l2. what depth does l2 have really? L2 is a simple and fun, grinding pk affair.

[a12ctic]

WoW was made to run on low end computers, and i enjoy that, it works on a computer i have from 2000...

[Sgt_Pitt]

http://members.optusnet.com.au/~pittinc1/EQ2_000256.jpg