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jolle
05-03-05, 07:25 PM
Was thinking a bit about it, a while ago I read Sweeney mentioning scepcism about MSAA for the future, seeing how it doesnt work on the internal aliasing inside textures..
And it is true, it struck the most with Riddick, mad crawling all over the place with all the bumpmapping (or normal maps).
Now we se more use of it, aswell as more extreme surface emulating methods such as Virtual Displacement, parallax and offset mapping.
"Virtually" creating heights and depths they create "fake" edges that arent polygonal and wont be AAed with MSAA.

So, has there been any news on the AA front?
I wouldnt mind if SSAA came back, sure it is heavy since it renders the entire image (2x2 SSAA @ 800x600 = 1600x1200 right?) larger and downsamples it.
But it does affect the entire image, and not just polygonal edges.
I also remember when I first ran "Dawn techdemo" on my ol 9700Pro (with that wrapper) and what a huge difference it made when I turned on 6x AA.
The more "real", the better graphics gets, the greater difference Aliasing makes, like if you were watching "Shrek" and then saw a version that wasnt rendered with SSAA.
would be all jaggie and horrible, while it doesnt make THAT much difference on Quake1.. in a overall impact of the graphics..

I guess another solution would be MSAA that can detect alpha channel in transparent textures, aswell as the edges in "surface emulating" textures, would be faster atleast, if it can be done..
Saw some tool that would do alpha channel checks for AA on ATi cards, early beta stuff and I havent tried it myself..

The "easy" way would be to just require people to get larger screens and play @ 1600x1200 or higher where the aliasing is less apparant I guess, but since its still quite a "buzz" around AA I would expect there is alot of marketing value in having good AA solutions with your products these days..

Whats your thoughts about it?
Does anyone have any news of word on what the next gen hardware might bring? if they bring anything new in terms of AA at all..
I would atleast expect FP16 Framebuffer that supports AA, since HDR is moving in bigtime..

nutball
05-04-05, 07:54 AM
The "easy" way would be to just require people to get larger screens and play @ 1600x1200 or higher where the aliasing is less apparant I guess, but since its still quite a "buzz" around AA I would expect there is alot of marketing value in having good AA solutions with your products these days..

Aliasing is still very noticeable at 1600x1200 if you are using a flat-panel driven by DVI. CRTs are maybe less so, because they're not so sharp. But FSAA still has its place even at these resolutions. Maybe when we all have one of these (http://www5.pc.ibm.com/uk/products.nsf/$wwwpartnumlookup/_T3DG5UK) the need for FSAA will go away :)

SH64
05-04-05, 09:59 AM
Well i think its time for more use of SSAA , or at least we should start of using it esp when most rumors confirms the huge memory badwidth in the next gen video cards.
in this gener its more like that 1024x768=low res , 1280x1024=med res ,1600x1200 = high res .. i think the concept will stay the same for next gen video cards , but 1280xxxx should be more like the standard for playing games with at least 4xAA.

And it is true, it struck the most with Riddick, mad crawling all over the place with all the bumpmapping (or normal maps).

Yep! heck even @1600x1200,4xAA this crawling appears like a white spot in a black screen that even got me suspect if FSAA was enabled or not.

jolle
05-05-05, 06:28 AM
Nuttball I said "less apparant", it is like you say still there.

Anyhow I wonder if there are any new hybrid modes like 8xS with the next gen, they did tweak it a bit with NV4x.
Seems like SSAA will be more important from now on, or should be, in this "quest" for cinematic graphics..

Maybe supersampling certain textures (virtual surface displacing ones) alone can be done, then MSAA on the geometry..
or use methods such as this might help:
http://developer.nvidia.com/object/mipmapping_normal_maps.html

jolle
06-10-05, 01:06 PM
Saw this over at the forceware section, thought it fits in well here..
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2442

Seems like NV is going to put in the 16xS mode, as a official mode for SLI in forceware..
Its been available quite sometime via 3rd party tools such as nHancer.
Its 2x2 SSAA + 4x MSAA, so it renders the image twice as big in both directions (4x as big total) and applies 4x MSAA ontop of that.

Havent tried it myself I think, the current implementation only works in D3d, but if they plan on making it official its resonable to expect it will be working in openGL when it hits.

jolle
06-21-05, 05:18 PM
News!
Some asian site broke the NDA it seems.. and I got the impression from the thread about that, that we can discuss that article, so I assume Im not out of line here, or else just edit my post or something..

Anyhow, seems the 7800 features some new AA modes. Transpancy AA.
TSAA (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hardspell.com%2Fhard% 2Fshowcont.asp%3Fnews_id%3D14372&langpair=zh-CN%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) seems to be a faster type of SSAA, the article was translated from Chineese and not all that easy to figure out, but it seems its a faster type of SSAA using some autoadapting algorithms..
I expect more indepth info on that when more articles comes out (which arent written in chineese hehe)..

TMAA (http://translate.google.com/translate?u=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.hardspell.com%2Fhard% 2Fshowcont.asp%3Fnews_id%3D14372&langpair=zh-CN%7Cen&hl=en&safe=off&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&prev=%2Flanguage_tools) is perhaps a bit more exciting, it seems like this is MSAA with alphatest, IE it will actually apply AA on edges inside alphablended textures, hopefully it will perform on the lines of regular MSAA aswell.

finally, some real news on the AA front, not just "higher sampling values", but something different and a bit innovative (even tho I think there is a 3rd party app to do alphatest MSAA on ATi cards)

Acid Rain
06-22-05, 01:59 AM
CRTs are maybe less so, because they're not so sharp. But FSAA still has its place even at these resolutions. Interestingly enough, I still notice jaggies even at 1920x1440 on this 19inch CRT. They stick out like a sore thumb to me. Something about the utterly hard edge VS an anti-aliased edge just sticks right out.

I think we'll always need at least a little AA, no matter the resolution. Or, at least, I will.

ChrisRay
06-22-05, 02:42 AM
Saw this over at the forceware section, thought it fits in well here..
http://www.anandtech.com/video/showdoc.aspx?i=2442

Seems like NV is going to put in the 16xS mode, as a official mode for SLI in forceware..
Its been available quite sometime via 3rd party tools such as nHancer.
Its 2x2 SSAA + 4x MSAA, so it renders the image twice as big in both directions (4x as big total) and applies 4x MSAA ontop of that.

Havent tried it myself I think, the current implementation only works in D3d, but if they plan on making it official its resonable to expect it will be working in openGL when it hits.

This is not the same 16xS mode we have in our current drivers. It's different.

jolle
06-22-05, 03:39 PM
This is not the same 16xS mode we have in our current drivers. It's different.

Seems its going to be 4xMSAA and supersampling, according to Guru3d atleast..
Perhaps 4xMSAA + the new TSAA mode in some form then?
it seems to be alot faster then the traditional OGSS used in the old 16xS.

ChrisRay
06-22-05, 07:37 PM
Seems its going to be 4xMSAA and supersampling, according to Guru3d atleast..
Perhaps 4xMSAA + the new TSAA mode in some form then?
it seems to be alot faster then the traditional OGSS used in the old 16xS.


Yes. But its not the same mode we know and have used. :P