R350......confirmed, 16TMU, DDRII

[Gar]

Well, I wouldn't say its fact yet, but it looks pretty probable. This could be a serious competitor to the NV30, and could easily take its steam away faster than nvidia might have planned.


Xbit (http://www.xbitlabs.com/news/story.html?id=1039657263)

As I discovered over The Inquirer today ATI’s forthcoming R350 and RV350 processors have been recently taped-out at TSMC’s fabs. According to the media source, the R350 graphics processor is manufactured using 0.15 micron process, just like we revealed a week ago (see this news-story), while the RV350 chip is made using advanced 0.13 micron technology.

R350 graphics processor is based on the R300 architecture, but with certain optimisations that allow higher core-clock speed. According to rumours, the R350 VPU incorporates 8 rendering pipelines with two texture units per pipeline, hence, there will be sixteen TMUs in this chip. Graphics cards powered by the R350 VPU will be equipped with DDR-II memory with 256-bit bus. Actual products powered by the upcoming processor will appear in Spring 2003.

RV350 VPU is said to be the next-generation mainstream offering and will also based on the R300 architecture. There is no information about its technical specifications, though, some expect it to show performance comparable to than that of the RADEON 9700. Given thinner manufacturing process and simplified architecture, the RV350 should be cheaper compared to its elder brethren with equal performance. We can expect the mobile version of the RV350 to be available shortly after the release. The availability timeframes of the part are unknown.

With the tape out now complete we may expect ATI to meet the expectations and launch the R350 based products sometimes in March. I do not believe that the company will unveil its RV350 earlier than in Summer, hence, the company will have a lot of time to optimise its next-generation mainstream VPU. As for the R350, honestly speaking, there is not a lot of time left for ATI to fully finalise the VPU. .

About the extra TMU, I've heard from many discussion boards that the extra TMU wasn't that impressive in performance for most current games (many speculated the NV30 would have 2) however, it may provide a little more head room in multitextures (obviously).

[poursoul]

This isn't from x-bit though. Yes, it would be more reliable coming from x-bit. All it is is x-bit posting what they read at the inq well. and never take that for certain. Although they have been very accurate recently.

[Bigus Dickus]

Well, extra TMU's could possibly help AF performance, if there was enough bandwidth to feed them.

I think the Inq. is just regurgitating rumors that have been spread for months now, but to be honest they could very well be correct, simply because there's really only two possibilities (8 or 16 TMU's), and no one knows... that gives them a 50% chance just by guessing.

And if they are correct, people will think they are prophets. :)

Personally, I don't think there's enough room left on the die on .15u for an extra 8 TMU's, but what do I know?

It would be cool I guess. :D

[Evildeus]

Well the question is, how much more transistors does it require? And How much does it cost?

[-=DVS=-]

Originally posted by Evildeus
Well the question is, how much more transistors does it require? And How much does it cost?

Well cost will be no more then Original R300 at its release date :rolleyes: but perfomance wise should give NV30 run for its money :D :p lol

[Evildeus]

Originally posted by -=DVS=-
Well cost will be no more then Original R300 at its release date :rolleyes: but perfomance wise should give NV30 run for its money :D :p lol Well DDR2 is not cheap, and making a let say 130+M transistor chip on the 0.15um process won't get it cheaper ;)
Time will tell :)

[Uttar]

What I'm wondering is if the following could be possible...
4 pipelines with 1 TMU/pipe and 4 pipelines with 2 TMUs/pipe. Or maybe something like 5 pipes with 1TMU/pipe, 2 pipes with 2TMU/pipe and 1 pipe with 3TMUs.

That would give 12 TMUs.
The the GPU would "intelligently" guess which pipe to use based on the number of textures the pixel got and how busy each pipe is.

Really not sure such a thing is even possible, and maybe it would take too much transistors to add the smart guess part. Ah well, might have been nice.


Uttar

[nutball]

You'd be better off with a pool of TMUs, with pipelines drawing on their resources as required. Then you can effectively adapt your architecture on a pixel-by-pixel basis to the rendering problem in hand.

ISTR NVIDIA have said that parts of the NV30 are designed like this. A pool of processing resources which divvied up according to the task in hand (though I might be mis-remembering).

[Matthyahuw]

I think it's kinda funny that ATI is shooting their own customers in the foot trying to cut NVIDIA "off at the pass" in rushing to get this new card out... so you have your 9700 a couple months and it's obsolete already...

[Lezmaka]

I don't know how this could be considered "confirmed" since it says "according to rumours" and was originally post by the inquirer.

[budd_wm]

Originally posted by Matthyahuw
I think it's kinda funny that ATI is shooting their own customers in the foot trying to cut NVIDIA "off at the pass" in rushing to get this new card out... so you have your 9700 a couple months and it's obsolete already...

Actually, I wouldn't call the 9700 obsolete, not by a long shot. They are just doing what nVidia does - kinda like releasing an ultra version of their card. I'm still getting a 9700 regardless of the R350 being released soon, and I know I won't have any regrets. :D

[Matthyahuw]

no one even got to use the full potential of the 9700 yet, and now there's a new one coming???

hmm, that's why I wait until I actually NEED a new card, still happy with my GF3...

[zakelwe]

Does anyone know the cost of DDR II memory in comparision to DDR ?

If it is not great then the R350 might as well have it, but if there is a large difference then having 256 bit bus width and DDR II might be over egging the pudding. It's got loads of bandwidth at present.

Core changes would be good though, especially if they can get the core speeds up as well. Hopefully it will force nvidia to keep the prices more relastic.

Regards

Andy

[druga runda]

If the above is true R350 should be a beast of the card.

Acording to them when they OC'd Radeon to 450/400 ( I think) they got a linear increase in FPS all across the board (for increase in bandwidth, and gpu clock) at high resolutions or AA/AF, we can't bet what is going to happen with 2 TMU's but if they increase the clock speed to 400 or more and add DDR2 + 2 TMU's whoaa.... that part migh be 50% faster than R300. Similar to GF4 over GF3.

And that would leave NV30 behind in FPS for sure.

[jbirney]

Originally posted by Matthyahuw
I think it's kinda funny that ATI is shooting their own customers in the foot trying to cut NVIDIA "off at the pass" in rushing to get this new card out... so you have your 9700 a couple months and it's obsolete already...

Ummmmm did you forget what happen at this time last year? Fastest card top end card was GF3Ti 500. Lots of people bought them for xmas only to have them replaced with in 2 months by the GF4 serries. NV has always done this with GF1 w/DDR followed by GF2. GF2 Ultra followed by GF3. GF3 Ti500 followed by GF4, ect....


BTW the 9700 was avible in early Spet. The R350 probably wont see the light of day unitl March at best which gives the 9700pro 6 months at the top of ATI's food chain.

[Typedef Enum]

I think it's kinda funny that ATI is shooting their own customers in the foot trying to cut NVIDIA "off at the pass" in rushing to get this new card out... so you have your 9700 a couple months and it's obsolete already...

Quite frankly, I have _never_ understood this type of logic.

Since when is it required for a consumer to go out and buy every product released by some manufacturer?

The fact of the matter is that, regardless of the R350, the 9700 is a very good product right now. It has been the performance leader since it arrived, and will continue (in all likelihood) until the GeForce-FX is out.

I think you could easily make the argument that, by and large, the 9700 is far ahead of any shipping game right now. You would have to _really_ crank that thing up in order to achieve unplayable framerates.

[Gar]

Since when is it required for a consumer to go out and buy every product released by some manufacturer?

It's not about buying every product that comes out, ati realizes that the majority of people who bought the 9700 aren't going to go out and buy a R350. The whole reason for doing a 6 month refresh is to be the GFX manufacturer on top of the other. And that is what ATI is doing. Since the R300 and the GFFX delays, the whole thing has changed. Now Nvidia is ging to be keeping up with the R350 when that is out instead of being on top of ATI if ATI were to have a 12 month schedule like NVidia does. I'm just glade there is competition now that ATI is producing better cards/drivers. Keeps the prices low for all of us and the technologies booming.

[71skylark]

I'm the type who keep a card wayyyy too long, I'm still using a radeon 7500 right now. I like to buy a companies 2nd best generation usually, that's why I'm waiting for NV30 or R350 to drive the 9700 pro's price down. Also I want DX9 but I don't want to pay alot, which is another reason I will wait until there are other DX9 cards available.

[legion88]

Originally posted by Matthyahuw
no one even got to use the full potential of the 9700 yet, and now there's a new one coming???

hmm, that's why I wait until I actually NEED a new card, still happy with my GF3...

As others have noted, that is bogus "logic". In fact, NVIDIA (forgot the name of the person) even addressed that "logic" of yours a couple of years ago. I'll keep it simple: those people with an ATI RagePro Turbo can now skip over the Radeon 9700Pro to purchase the R350 instead.

[Lowen Na]

False rumor. ATI will not use DDR2 mem in their next card. They have laready stated that their next cards will use GDDR3 ram which is thier own prepritary mem.

[Uttar]

Originally posted by Lowen Na
False rumor. ATI will not use DDR2 mem in their next card. They have laready stated that their next cards will use GDDR3 ram which is thier own prepritary mem.

They've also said they expect it to be available in either H2 2003 or H1 2004. So, you point being?...


Uttar

[Lowen Na]

you got me there...