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Gaco
05-18-05, 06:07 PM
If you need furthur proof:

Guerrilla's stunning PLAYSTATION 3 trailer, showing the future of the Killzone series, is the talk of the town here in LA (as well as the Internet at large). We did some digging...

Jan-Bart Van Beek is the Game Director of the PS3 Killzone at Guerrilla Games, and has spent the last few months working on the trailer that really blew the crowd away at Monday's PLAYSTATION 3 unveiling. After a second showing of the trailer at today's SCEE conference received another rapturous round of applause, we caught up with Jan to find out more.

How do you feel about the reaction to the trailer that was shown yesterday?

Jan-Bart: It's been an amazing reception, the rush you get from seeing your own stuff on the big screen like that, and then the reaction to it, it's a big rush, I'm really happy about it.

How long ago did work start on the sequence?

Jan-Bart: We started working on it in late November, and only finished it three days before the show, at the very, very last moment!

It seemed like Killzone, only more so! Is that what we can expect from the finished game?

Jan-Bart: We want to avoid having just Killzone with more beautiful graphics. We want to add a lot more to it than that. So we're adding a lot more character interaction, with the ways they respond to you and how you can react to them. There's a lot more interactions between characters like you see in the trailer, people dragging each other off out of combat and helping each other, giving each other their weapons - a lot more real human interaction, basically.

[Ben Duncan, the game's Producer] It's like with the Alfred Molina demo, the quality of facial animation we can get with the characters means you'll really feel that emotional sense of being part of a unit and fighting together. Characters working together, comrades pulling each other back from the field of battle; that kind of thing is really going to move the genre forward.

There's a great moment where you see an ISA ally take out a Helghan with his rifle butt to save your bacon... is that representative of the kind of sophisticated behaviour we'll start seeing in artificial intelligence when PS3 arrives?

Jan-Bart: Yes, totally, it's just the start. Characters will be very aware, very alert to how they might be able to help you. That moment [with the rifle butt] is a good example of how it can add a little visual 'wow' to it all.

Is the Killzone sequence a fair example of what people can expect from realtime gameplay on PLAYSTATION 3?

Jan-Bart: Yeah, it's basically a representation of the look and feel of the game we're trying to make.

Have you found PS3 easy to work with?

JB: Yes, we're really impressed with it. The Cell is amazingly powerful, and the graphics CPU [the RSX, co-developed with Nvidia] in there... it's actually hard to mimic it on our development PCs, we have to see it on the PS3 hardware itself. It's really nice to be working with such powerful hardware.

As yet, high definition TV isn't that widespread, especially in Europe - are you concerned that some players won't get to see your game in as much detail as is intended?

JB: No, I think in two, three years' time, HDTV will be a lot more accepted, in Europe too. We'll start out with 720p and then [onto 1080p] as there's now this product [PS3] that people will want to buy a new TV for.

Thanks, and congratulations on the work.


Notice:

Jan-Bart: Yeah, it's basically a representation of the look and feel of the game we're trying to make."

Which means, that is what they EXPECT it to look like.

And:

"it's actually hard to mimic it on our development PCs, we have to see it on the PS3 hardware itself."

Which means, they're working on very powerful PC's...

Knot3D
05-18-05, 06:17 PM
Yeah, but didn't the specs prove that RSX > 6800Ultra Sli ?

What cards would their dev pc be using then ? Quadro's ? yeah sure. But we
all know Quadro's kinda suck at ingame performance. They're made for viewport performance in Maya or Max.

killahsin
05-18-05, 06:20 PM
Where do you suppose the HD video came from, a finished PS3 which I understand is non-existent or an underpowered dev box? Do you actually believe the dev box can render Killzone 2 in realtime at that framerate? Have you ever considered the likelihood that they used the dev boxes to pre-render those at 1080p and not at some ridiculously high resolution?

Serious Sam Second Encounter allows offline rendering of a demo file at any resolution and at any frame rate you specify. If I gave you a DivXHD 1080p, 60fps recording of SS:SE made from my lowly Radeon 8500, would you be fooled into thinking that it was recorded in realtime?


the hd video came from shacknews silly its all shakey cam of a big screen but at very high quality lol. But i'll tell you what if you guys want to say that the developers of kz2 are lying thats fine with me.

dude its a tech demo trailer just like what hl2 was when it was first introduced and everyoen claimed it wasnt real time. they render to frames people lol. So basically what you guys are fighting over was the fact it was a video and not ran in real time during the presentation, if thats the case than your correct. But you can be sure that is WHAT the game will look like IN real time when u buy your ps3. You all read the comment from the guy at 1up saying hsi buddy who works on kz stated that pretty much all of it is real time. Yet you all insist on twisting and turning whatever you can into evidence that it isn't real time. I do find it funny. No im not a kz fanboy hell i probabnly won't even have the tiem to play it lol. But that doesnt mean im going to just bash the game because i cant believe its not real time. I'm sitting in max right now working on a scene with a ton more poly's than that. so I'm quite sure i can believe thats real time or will be.

Gaco
05-18-05, 06:43 PM
Let me make myself clear: The demo didn't run in realtime on PS3 hardware. It was developed with alpha-state dev-kit and prerendered on non-PS3 hardware. It shows what the makers of KZ2 think we can expect when it comes out at some point, but the point really is that it wasn't rendered in realtime, not on PS3 at least. My point is, that it can not be compared to those screens and videos we see from Xbox360, since almost every movieclip from Xbox360 games have been in realtime rendering on alpha-state Xbox360-hardware still in development, which is currently only at about 40% the speed of what they expect the final Xbox360 to be.
All I do is that I react on all those "omg, the PS3 looks sooo much better, of all that I have seen so far, it's gonna own Xbox360!". Well duh, it's non-realtime against realtime, so go figure ;)

killahsin
05-18-05, 06:46 PM
http://ve3d.ign.com/articles/616/616396p1.html

theres some more killzone screenshots for you. Alot of aliasing blur going on there for thsoe to be pre-rendered. Hey you might be right, but im not sure why developers would lie. Also from what i understand or how i read that interview he is simply stating that they couldnt reproduce the effects on their pc and had to actyually watch it on the ps3 hardware in order to see it in all its glory, which i can understand considering ppus are still not mainstream. For instance peep the barrel of the gun in the last screenshot. If thats prerendered the cg people suck, and I would fire them if i were them.

Vagrant Zero
05-18-05, 07:17 PM
Let me make myself clear: The demo didn't run in realtime on PS3 hardware. It was developed with alpha-state dev-kit and prerendered on non-PS3 hardware. It shows what the makers of KZ2 think we can expect when it comes out at some point, but the point really is that it wasn't rendered in realtime, not on PS3 at least. My point is, that it can not be compared to those screens and videos we see from Xbox360, since almost every movieclip from Xbox360 games have been in realtime rendering on alpha-state Xbox360-hardware still in development, which is currently only at about 40% the speed of what they expect the final Xbox360 to be.
All I do is that I react on all those "omg, the PS3 looks sooo much better, of all that I have seen so far, it's gonna own Xbox360!". Well duh, it's non-realtime against realtime, so go figure ;)

It's not like ps3 dev kits are horribley underpowered compared to the console which is a year away. Secondly, just becuase it wasn't run on PS3 hardware doesn't make it pre-rendered, seems like you don't know the difference between pre-rendered and real-time.

Methinks you're an Xbox fanboy who is performing damage control. Get over it, the PS3 will be the more powerful unit. The question is can devs put that power to good use.

six_storm
05-18-05, 09:09 PM
Let me make myself clear: The demo didn't run in realtime on PS3 hardware. It was developed with alpha-state dev-kit and prerendered on non-PS3 hardware. It shows what the makers of KZ2 think we can expect when it comes out at some point, but the point really is that it wasn't rendered in realtime, not on PS3 at least. My point is, that it can not be compared to those screens and videos we see from Xbox360, since almost every movieclip from Xbox360 games have been in realtime rendering on alpha-state Xbox360-hardware still in development, which is currently only at about 40% the speed of what they expect the final Xbox360 to be.
All I do is that I react on all those "omg, the PS3 looks sooo much better, of all that I have seen so far, it's gonna own Xbox360!". Well duh, it's non-realtime against realtime, so go figure ;)

Very well said. Even the PS3 and XBOX 360 hardware aren't finalize yet! They are still in alpha/beta stages. How can that KillZone footage be realtime if the hardware isn't complete yet? It's like I've said a billion times, you can't make a true judgement on the consoles and games until you they actually release into the public.

six_storm
05-18-05, 10:56 PM
Check this out! Turns out all of the XBOX 360 demos are running off of PowerMacs instead of the actual consoles. I told you the consoles weren't ready to go!

http://www.anandtech.com/tradeshows/showdoc.aspx?i=2420&p=5

killahsin
05-18-05, 11:11 PM
thats been know for a long time those are the dev kits silly, the same as the ps3 devkit is a cell system with sli 6800s. Of course the consoles arent ready lol

Connaught
05-19-05, 12:11 AM
I know that the cell processor is 64-bit, is the xbox cpu 64-bit? Could make a difference considering all the fuss that 64-bit gaming is making lately (Far Cry)

Subtestube
05-19-05, 12:30 AM
I just want to say once again - we don't really know what either console will be like in terms of real world in your lounge performance. The one thing we DO know is that if (and it's a big if) the tech demos we've seen so far for both XBOX 360 and PS3 are accurate to what in game appearance (fps performance aside) will actually be like (whether or not they're actually pre-rendered), it looks like the PS3 will be a bit nicer (in my opinion).

The thing is though that these are all HUGE 'ifs'. Until we see both actual consoles in action and competition, we really won't know which one (if either) is the most powerful in terms of in game real world performance. Still.. I think the thing the PS3 people are saying has some validity. If that Killzone trailer is what we can expect in-game (and considering the comments of the devs, I think it would be presumptuous to assume it's not), then the PS3 has a real ace in the hole. As other's have rightly said, it is pre-rendered, so the game may not look like that - but for now, we have no reason to believe that they'd lie, aside from our own incredulity. If you see what I mean.

Knot3D
05-19-05, 05:05 AM
The graphics advantage PS3 will have over Xbox360 will imo be like Xbox has over PS2.

It's just a bit tough to get a 'feel' for how much better that is with the new standard in realtime graphics. The margins will become clear with time.

AthlonXP1800
05-19-05, 07:08 AM
The graphics advantage PS3 will have over Xbox360 will imo be like Xbox has over PS2.

It's just a bit tough to get a 'feel' for how much better that is with the new standard in realtime graphics. The margins will become clear with time.

That easy to work out, Xbox 360 has 1 TFLOP, all 3 3.2GHz PowerPC CPUs performed total of 115 GFLOPs and then take that away from 1 TFLOP will give R500 GPU performed 885 GFLOPs. Playstation 3 has 2.1 TFLOP, the Cell performed 218 GFLOPs and that leave Nvidia RSX incredible 1.8 TFLOPs or 1882 GFLOPs. RSX is more than twice faster than R500 in floating point power. :angel:

PeterJensen
05-19-05, 07:15 AM
AthlonXP1800 : Hahaha thats so funny...lets all listen to the Sony bull**** :)

Toss3
05-19-05, 09:04 AM
Think logically, of cause it was not rendered realtime from PS3 hardware, thats simply impossible from this stage. Remember, the PS3 hardware is too on the alpha-stage, but Sony just chose to view most of their demonstrations as pre-rendered, while MS chose to show ingame footage all the way. There's no right or wrong method, because Sony only shows what is to be expected from the PS3 at the time of arrival. But notice that this also means, that the movies and screenshots from Xbox360 does not represent anything like the graphics we're gonna see when it's done. It's hardware and dev-kit is also just in the alpha-phase and we have only seen this, not predictions.

"Just saw Peter Moore speak on CNBC saying every 360 game at E3 is running on Alpha kits. Not sure if he meant the dev kits or the actual hardware. but the actual games are playable, unlike sony's tech demos that ran off high-powered PC's. (yeah, he took a shot at sony....which i thought was funny.) he also stated, once the beta kits and then the final kits come in... you will see the true power of 360."

Also:

"The best way to look at it is that, well it depends on which functions you're looking at, but in aggregate it's probably 30-40% of what the final product can do."
Rest of the mini-intervew at:
[URL]http://www.extremetech.com/article2/0,1558,1817028,00.asp[URL]

Besides from that, I just know it secondhand from some fellas, one of my friends know, who are at E3 right now...


All I'm saying is just that it's still way too early to say anything about which machine will be most powerful.. But surely, none of them will "own" the other.

It's real-time. But I don't think it's running on the PS3. That would just be :eek:

http://users.coditel.net/COD11731/kill.wmv

http://users.coditel.net/COD11731/teleport.wmv

Too many bugs and glitches for it to be pre-rendered. The resolution of the ground textures is also too low for it to be pre-rendered.

BioHazZarD
05-19-05, 09:12 AM
Just saw that Sony conference from IGN and im sure PS3 will blow everything out of its water its amazing how powerful the machine will be its crazy MS has already lost the race and ever forum ive been too PS3 Wins with easy on polls :)

Gaco
05-19-05, 09:13 AM
It's not like ps3 dev kits are horribley underpowered compared to the console which is a year away. Secondly, just becuase it wasn't run on PS3 hardware doesn't make it pre-rendered, seems like you don't know the difference between pre-rendered and real-time.

Methinks you're an Xbox fanboy who is performing damage control. Get over it, the PS3 will be the more powerful unit. The question is can devs put that power to good use.

Hey, you're the one here with "Hating XBox 360/MTV" at your profile name :rolleyes:
I'm not excluding the possibility that it was rendered in realtime, that's not what I meant at least (I know, I've been repeating myself for some time now), I'm just saying that it sure as hell was not PS3, and that makes the presentation uncompareable to Xobx360's realtime videos.

Toss3
05-19-05, 09:20 AM
Hey, you're the one here with "Hating XBox 360/MTV" at your profile name :rolleyes:
I'm not excluding the possibility that it was rendered in realtime, that's not what I meant at least (I know, I've been repeating myself for some time now), I'm just saying that it sure as hell was not PS3, and that makes the presentation uncompareable to Xobx360's realtime videos.
And how do you know they were real-time? :P You can't be sure until you've played a game yourself.

Gaco
05-19-05, 09:20 AM
Just saw that Sony conference from IGN and im sure PS3 will blow everything out of its water its amazing how powerful the machine will be its crazy MS has already lost the race and ever forum ive been too PS3 Wins with easy on polls :)

1. The specs are not final

2. It's still too early to tell. Xbox360 is more better in some areas of it's hareware and vice verca.

3. The poll doesn't really surprise me that much. For one, this is a Nvidia-fansite after all, so when people see movies/screens from the two consoles, and some PS3 games immediately looks better, it doesn't take long for us to reach the conclussion that PS3 will own Xbox360 graphicswise, ignoring the fact that we tend to compare rendered games on powerful computers vs. ingame on the Xbox360 alpha-state.

We just still don't know which console will be most powerful. I'm just rationally leaving possibilites open...

Gaco
05-19-05, 09:23 AM
And how do you know they were real-time? :P You can't be sure until you've played a game yourself.

How do you know that the earth cirkles the sun and not the opposite? :p

Just kidding, I'm just taking Microsofts word for it, and seeing that it also makes sense in the current alpha-state Xbox360's harware and devkit is at right now, just as I'm taking the creators of Killzone 2's word for it when they say it was rendered on powerful computers, not PS3 hardware (which is also impossible, since it's not done yet..)

newlinuxguy
05-19-05, 09:37 AM
hum...xbox 360 is going to be on sale this december and they are still running on pre alpa-hardware ??!!! it will take 2-3 months of testing time and manufacturing. ms has only like 6 months to do everything - port the os to power pc architecture, directx 10, games...what I think is the xbox 360 hardware is very close to what they showed or xbox 360 is going to be delayed.


sony still has a year !!

bill gates already said that halo 3 is going to be released around ps3 launch....so basically halo 3 is NOT a launch title ??? what i know is xbox sold coz of halo. and NO halo 3 ...LOLOMG!@!@!!!

Listen guys PS3 is using nvidia chip. I am sure many developers are familiar with OpenGL than ps2 ybasic (or whatever it was called). This time PS3 is going to be much easier to program. That is because sony is using one of the most common graphics language - OpenGL.

Sony has a lot of +ve things on their side this time - better hardware, easy to program, blue-ray, games.

There is hardly anything that M$ can do now. These things cant change so fast. Remmember how nvidia was stuck with NV30 for 2 years !! They knew it sucked but they were hardly able to do anything in 6 months. It took almost 2 years to get the things right.

Plus sony is going to use cell in tv, graphics workstation...they ARE going to make a lot of money out of it. Just imagine a 100 cell based workstation - it will freaking own in design studios and movie rendering !!!

Gaco
05-19-05, 10:01 AM
Jesus, I really seem to be one of the very few sensible enough not to make rushed conclusions? :confused:

Oh well, time will show...

PeterJensen
05-19-05, 10:20 AM
newlinuxguy : you my friend is a moron :) Go post flamebait on your fav. sony fansite, and leave the rest of us the **** alone...good boy :D

AthlonXP1800
05-19-05, 11:29 AM
hum...xbox 360 is going to be on sale this december and they are still running on pre alpa-hardware ??!!! it will take 2-3 months of testing time and manufacturing. ms has only like 6 months to do everything - port the os to power pc architecture, directx 10, games...what I think is the xbox 360 hardware is very close to what they showed or xbox 360 is going to be delayed.


sony still has a year !!

Actually Sony now has exactly 9 months time to launch, that will give Sony good 2 to 3 months plenty time for testing but it seem very unfortunately for Microsoft, they now has exactly 6 months away for November 2005 launch but they have a major problem, they didnt have a bloody full function Xbox 360 prototype running at E3 launch conference. I dont think Microsoft can fit everything to get ready in tight 6 months schedule, they aiming to manufacture and sell 1 million units this December, that translate to 250,000 units each month at maximum volume production capacity each month for 4 months but it need a month for testing, sample and trial production to receive prototypes that Microsoft should had it ready a few months ago but it does not leave room for Microsoft to have 2 to 3 months for testing games on A0 hardware revision, detect and fix bugs then sent back to manufacture A1 revision.

I agreed Microsoft rushed with Xbox 360 and totally unprepared, they first put the original launch date to Q2 2005 1 year ahead of PS3's Spring 2006 but suddenly the date pushed back to Q3 2005 for Autumn launch and oppp the date pushed again to Q4 2005 for November launch. If Microsoft still managed to squeeze for November launch then I expect lots of Xbox 360 hardwares to have mishaps and glitches but it will be better for Microsoft to get things right smoothly, it has to be Spring 2006 launch, it will be great to fire the starter gun start PS3 vs Xbox 360 launch race in the same month. :)

evilchris
05-19-05, 11:41 AM
I'm sure a 50 billion dollar company has no idea what they're doing and need a guy like you to lay it all out eh Athlon?