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Ruined
06-02-05, 01:48 PM
http://arstechnica.com/articles/paedia/cpu/xbox360-2.ars/7

"At any rate, Playstation 3 fanboys shouldn't get all flush over the idea that the Xenon will struggle on non-graphics code. However bad off Xenon will be in that department, the PS3's Cell will probably be worse. The Cell has only one PPE to the Xenon's three, which means that developers will have to cram all their game control, AI, and physics code into at most two threads that are sharing a very narrow execution core with no instruction window. (Don't bother suggesting that the PS3 can use its SPEs for branch-intensive code, because the SPEs lack branch prediction entirely.) Furthermore, the PS3's L2 is only 512K, which is half the size of the Xenon's L2. So the PS3 doesn't get much help with branches in the cache department. In short, the PS3 may fare a bit worse than the Xenon on non-graphics code, but on the upside it will probably fare a bit better on graphics code because of the seven SPEs.

In sum, the Xenon will certainly make the Xbox 360 a 3D graphics powerhouse."

|MaguS|
06-02-05, 02:23 PM
Wow that was to dumbest article I have read... The PS3 has a main cache of 512K but every SPE which can be used ANYWAY will have its own 256K (SPEs don't have to be used for Graphics Code, its beens stated that they can be used to multitask other parts such as AI and Physics). Its funny that the article didn't point out how severly limited the 360 is in bandwidth ingeneral since the CPU and GPU must share the Ram that means AI, Physics and Graphics all have to share ONE pipe, The EDRAM is on its own pipe to aid in AA and HD but it CANT be used any other way since its such a small amount.

Hell according to this article just because you have more cache cou automatically get better performance... Wonder why the FX55 still beats the P4EE 2MB...

BTW, SPEs specialize in Math Calculations.

You must really hate Sony/PS3, Most of your Posts are something anti-Sony/PS3.

Become knowledged and read this nice article on an indepth look into the Cell CPU.
http://www.anandtech.com/cpuchipsets/showdoc.aspx?i=2379

Ruined
06-02-05, 02:36 PM
Wow that was to dumbest article I have read... The PS3 has a main cache of 512K but every SPE which can be used ANYWAY will have its own 256K (SPEs don't have to be used for Graphics Code, its beens stated that they can be used to multitask other parts such as AI and Physics). Its funny that the article didn't point out how severly limited the 360 is in bandwidth ingeneral since the CPU and GPU must share the Ram that means AI, Physics and Graphics all have to share ONE pipe, The EDRAM is on its own pipe to aid in AA and HD but it CANT be used any other way since its such a small amount.

Hell according to this article just because you have more cache cou automatically get better performance... Wonder why the FX55 still beats the P4EE 2MB...

BTW, SPEs specialize in Math Calculations.

ArsTechnica is one of the most respected tech sites on the net. I'm not about to disregard their article and analysis because someone who is clearly a Sony fan doesn't like their results. They also released a 2-part analysis of the Cell processor prior to this 2-part analysis of the XBOX360 CPU. They don't say that the PS3 will not be able to do physics/AI, they just say that it will be worse than XBOX360 at it.

You must really hate Sony/PS3, Most of your Posts are something anti-Sony/PS3.

No, I will probably buy a PS3 (in addition to XBOX360) as I have a PS2 and 70+ games for it. The only thing I hate about Sony is how they overhype the specs and graphics on their consoles.


Become knowledged
:lol2:

Vagrant Zero
06-02-05, 02:37 PM
More cache better performence? Now that asshated thread I stumbled upon on the IGN boards where people were going ape**** over the 360s cache makes sense. But seriously, cache? Guess we were wrong, the prescott really is much better than the Northwood. 4 times better in fact.

Edge
06-02-05, 02:46 PM
Its funny that the article didn't point out how severly limited the 360 is in bandwidth ingeneral since the CPU and GPU must share the Ram that means AI, Physics and Graphics all have to share ONE pipe, The EDRAM is on its own pipe to aid in AA and HD but it CANT be used any other way since its such a small amount.
It doesn't matter how much of it there is, the important thing is that the bandwidth-intense accessing of the framebuffer won't cut down on the main system bandwidth. They could have increased the amount of EDRAM, but it wouldn't have been very beneficial since what it's used for doesn't require any more space. It does exactly what it was designed to: it greatly reduces the overall performance hit of having a large framebuffer. But regardless of that, AI and physics code doesn't depend very much on bandwidth, so bringing memory bandwidth into a debate about those functions is rather pointless (if bandwidth really does make a difference, wouldn't the extra cache increase the performance of those operations as well?).


You must really hate Sony/PS3, Most of your Posts are something anti-Sony/PS3.
Err, going by that reasoning, you must really love Sony/PS3 since most of your posts talk about how great they are/pro-Sony. If anything, I'd say the two of you balance eachother out nicely :p

Vagrant Zero
06-02-05, 02:48 PM
No, I will probably buy a PS3 (in addition to XBOX360) as I have a PS2 and 70+ games for it. The only thing I hate about Sony is how they overhype the specs and graphics on their consoles.
:lol2:

I call bullcrap. I remember the big stink you put up about SM3 and how it was wonderous and how SM2.0bers would be left in the dust. I remember how you desperately tried to disprove the SM1 to SM3 comparisions and when that failed tried to save face. I remember how you claimed that FC was just lightyears ahead of all other games thanks to its beta HDR. You sir, eat up overhype from Nvidia like oxygen, so don't you dare claim you hate that which gives you a purpose to exist.

Ruined
06-02-05, 03:04 PM
I call bullcrap. I remember the big stink you put up about SM3 and how it was wonderous and how SM2.0bers would be left in the dust. I remember how you desperately tried to disprove the SM1 to SM3 comparisions and when that failed tried to save face. I remember how you claimed that FC was just lightyears ahead of all other games thanks to its beta HDR. You sir, eat up overhype from Nvidia like oxygen, so don't you dare claim you hate that which gives you a purpose to exist.

XBOX360 uses ATI.... PS3 uses Nvidia! :eek:

That should prove right there I am not "brand loyal."

And guess what, other games have superior lighting with NV cards too now - Splinter Cell: Chaos Theory and the upcoming HL2 Lost Coast addon will use FP16 HDR. AoE3 will also use SM3 for geometry instancing which should give a big boost since it is an RTS. So yes, SM3 and FP16 HDR is slowly but surely resulting in better looking or faster games.

The main reason I am more excited about XBOX360 is because lots more original games have been announced for it than PS3, and it seems to be very well designed with Live integrated and not just another game console. Plus the XBOX360's controller looks far, far better than PS3's.

evilchris
06-02-05, 03:45 PM
Riptide, you can't win with the raving PS3 baboon squad. The Xbox is a coleco vision in their eyes, the PS3 will create phenomena inside the computAR machine and age SD content into HD!!

msxyz
06-02-05, 03:46 PM
Guess we were wrong, the prescott really is much better than the Northwood. 4 times better in fact.Except that Prescott limiting factor is the higher latecy of the cache coupled with a deeper pipeline architecture.

The article conclusions have a rather solid base and I mostly agree with them. Much will depend on the programmers ability to exploit parallelism (multithread or, in case of Cell, multiple programmable vector units)

Subtestube
06-02-05, 07:25 PM
I'd just like to say that I agree with msxyz's point, though I admit to not having read the article. Based on what I know about the cell and the tri-core monster in the XBOX 360, the big place in which the cell is likely to come out on top is in terms of the programmable vector units. My expectation is that this should result in substantial performance gains in areas where first class vectors are a large benefit - such as physics. I can't think how it would substantially help multi-threaded AI, and would expect the XBOX 360 to excel there. Again, a lot will depend on how easy these features are to implement and exploit.

Vagrant Zero
06-03-05, 01:05 AM
Riptide, you can't win with the raving PS3 baboon squad. The Xbox is a coleco vision in their eyes, the PS3 will create phenomena inside the computAR machine and age SD content into HD!!

That and it'll actually have RPGs. Not that I expect you to understand, you just jumped the PC ship [which in itself doesn't file under my smart move category], not really a console gamer in the first place.

P.S. Riptide hasn't posted in this thread, put the pipe down.

XBOX360 uses ATI.... PS3 uses Nvidia! :eek:
That should prove right there I am not "brand loyal."

Who said anything about brand loyalty? I simply stated that you claiming to hate hype of any kind is bullcrap since you eat up Nvidias.

evilchris
06-03-05, 01:38 AM
I didn't just jump from the PC ship. Quit thinking you know anything about me. I've gamed primarily on my Xbox since launch. Since 2001, I have purchased 57 Xbox games. In the same period of time I have purchased 3 PC games. No, I didn't pirate any either.

Ruined
06-03-05, 11:00 AM
That and it'll actually have RPGs. Not that I expect you to understand, you just jumped the PC ship [which in itself doesn't file under my smart move category], not really a console gamer in the first place.

XBOX360 currently has more RPGs announced for it than PS3, and has exclusive support from Mistwalker (http://www.joystiq.com/entry/1234000920044079/) at this time. In case you haven't heard of Hironobu Sakaguchi (http://www.mobygames.com/developer/sheet/view/developerId,33334/), he was the founder of the Final Fantasy series, and he's only on XBOX360 - click on his name and take a look at some of the RPGs he's made, see if you notice any you like.

X360 RPGs:
Lost Odyssey (http://www.gamespot.com/x360/rpg/lostodyssey/index.html?q=lost+odyssey) (Mistwalker/Microsoft)
Blue Dragon (Mistwalker/Microsoft)
Elder Scrolls IV: Oblivion (http://www.bethsoft.com/downloads_01.html#oblivtrailer) (Bethesda)
Final Fantasy XI (Square)

That's 2 Japanese RPGs PS3 won't have, and a third RPG that hasn't been announced for it. What RPGs have been annouced for PS3 again?



Who said anything about brand loyalty? I simply stated that you claiming to hate hype of any kind is bullcrap since you eat up Nvidias.

We'll see in 6 months whether its hype or not. There are already several games which are missing effects on ATI cards. That's not hype then, is it?

Bad_Boy
06-03-05, 01:43 PM
Square Enix's Final Fantasy XIII is rumored to be coming to the ps3. im not really surprized xbox has more titles announced than ps3 as it will be coming months ahead of the ps3. im sure there will be plenty of games from all genres when ps3 release is next.

im not much of a rpg fan anyways, bring on the fighting games + first person shooters :)

Ruined
06-03-05, 02:41 PM
Square Enix's Final Fantasy XIII is rumored to be coming to the ps3. im not really surprized xbox has more titles announced than ps3 as it will be coming months ahead of the ps3. im sure there will be plenty of games from all genres when ps3 release is next.

I'm sure too, just making the statement that there won't be RPGs on X360 is nonsensical when one of the most famous RPG makers of all time is making two RPGs exclusively for it, plus the next in the Elder Scrolls series is coming to it. Hasn't even come out yet and already 3 top tier RPGs announced so far.

Bad_Boy
06-03-05, 03:46 PM
thought this was interesting post over at psinext. relates alot to what that article was talking about...


Flop_King-
To clarrify any misinterpretations on the multi-threaded nature of the 3-core XBOX 360 CPU vs. the Cell SPE's, I feel it necessary to point out that while the 360's CPU supports a maximum of 6 threads only 3 threads can be active at one time (one per core). Each core supports two threads but can only be executing ONE thread at any given time. People hear the 6 thread XBOX 360 stat and assume it can execute 6 instruction threads in parallel but this is inaccurate. Now, while two threads are better than one they're not twice as good. Two threads supported on one core is comparable to 1.5 parallel single-threaded cores. This gives XBOX 360 an equivalent to about 4.5 parallel single-threaded cores when FULLY optimized, not 6. Now, the main difference between the 360's architecture and that of the Cell is that the Cell's SPE's ARE designed to run in parallel and independent of one another. This means that the Cell's 7 active SPE's are equivalent to 7 single-threaded parallel cores. 7 vs. 4.5. In this repect the PS3 is over 55% as powerful as the XBOX 360. Just thought a clarrification was a little past due on this topic.
Thanks.

not sure how correct his info is but interesting stuff. its on a playstation site so might be slightly biased but is interesting none the less. from reading it around it may seem that the 360 may be better in the physics department, and ps3 better in the graphics. not saying that the 360's graphics will suck or the ps3's physics will suck but like most talk lately, its just speculation. really depends on how the developers take use of each console when programming.

ok ill shutup the stupid talk :p

oldsk00l
06-03-05, 04:44 PM
Great, more conjecture on someone who doesn't know anymore than the rest of us about Cell vs Xenon....

what a retarded article