ATI: Xbox 360 will outperform PS3

[Roadhog]

hmmm, this is interesting


ATI: Xbox 360 will outperform PS3
By James Yu, Tim Surette, GameSpot
06/10/05 07:19 PM
URL: http://www.gamespot.com/news/2005/06/10/news_6127350.html

In an interview with Web site bit-tech.net, ATI Developer Relations Manager Richard Huddy waxed technical about Microsoft's upcoming Xbox 360 and ATI's role in the machine. The 360 will be using ATI's Xenos graphics processor, and Huddy's job is to chat with potential developers and help them develop the tools that best use Xenos' capabilities.

With regards to the console's architecture, Huddy says, "It's way better than I would have expected at this point in the history of 3D graphics." He sees the unified pipeline, rather than segregated pixel and vertex engines, giving the 360 a huge a huge advantage in accessible processing power.

Huddy goes on to shed some light on backwards compatibility. Each Xbox game is written with specific Xbox hardware in mind, and the 360's move to PowerPCs and ATI graphics doesn't jibe with the Xbox's Intel chips and Nvidia graphics processors. To add to the difficulty, the 360 wasn't designed for backward-compatibility early on in development.

To solve this, Microsoft has implemented the use of emulator programs that will allow the Xbox 360 to play Xbox games. According to Huddy, "emulating the CPU isn't really a difficult task. ...the real bottlenecks in the emulation are GPU calls--calls made specifically by games to the Nvidia hardware in a certain way. General GPU instructions are easy to convert--an instruction to draw a triangle in a certain way will be pretty generic. However, it’s the odd cases, the proprietary routines, that will cause hassle.” Once complete, the Xbox emulators could come pre-loaded on the unit's hard drive or will be downloadable via Xbox Live.

Huddy also dispels the notion of the PlayStation 3's higher graphics clock speed (550MHz versus the 360's 500MHz) means that Sony's console will outperform the Xbox 360. He believes that its ATI's unified pipeline that will make the biggest difference between the Xbox 360 and PS3. ATI archrival Nvidia, who is providing the RSX graphics processor for the PS3, has chosen not to go the route of a unified pipeline.

"This time around, [Nvidia doesn’t] have the architecture and we do, so they have to knock it and say it isn’t worthwhile. But in the future, they’ll market themselves out of this corner, claiming that they’ve cracked how to do it best. But RSX isn’t unified, and this is why I think PS3 will almost certainly be slower and less powerful."

[MUYA]

Can u start a thread in the right section in future thanks

[Roadhog]

oh woops, totally didnt see this forum.. my bad :P

[MUYA]

np :)

[Kamel]

eh, sounds like a bunch of FUD to me tbh. xbox has always been ahead of the game in graphics, but it's always been behind in gameplay. i'm sure plenty don't feel this way, but to me the xbox has not a single quality game that wasn't made for the ps2 as well.

[Subtestube]

I have my doubts about how they could possibly know comparative performance at this stage, being that the RSX doesn't exist (or if it does, it was only just taped out) as yet. Also, suggesting that a unified architecture will be faster than a segregated one is just plain spin. Each unit will almost definitely be slower than the specific units on a segregated card because it has to be more general purpose, but on the other hand, there are more of them. Also, the card may be able to do some fast dynamic load balancing, so the number of units might pay off. Basically my point is, the chap is the ATi Dev relations manager - we should no more believe his waxing lyrical about an ATi chip, than we should take at face value Sony's rhetoric regarding the cell.

[Vagrant Zero]

I wonder if it will outperform it by 40%, 30%, or a mere 20%. Let's ask Valve shall we.

Still I did love this line:

"This time around, [Nvidia doesn’t] have the architecture and we do, so they have to knock it and say it isn’t worthwhile. But in the future, they’ll market themselves out of this corner, claiming that they’ve cracked how to do it best. But RSX isn’t unified, and this is why I think PS3 will almost certainly be slower and less powerful."

Can't believe an ATI PR pep-boy just came out and said the NV40s kicked their tooshie. Or the fact that's ATI has been marketing itself into that same corner for a year now. SM3 bad. SLI poopie. Jesus is the devil!

[saturnotaku]

Can't believe an ATI PR pep-boy just came out and said the NV40s kicked their tooshie. Or the fact that's ATI has been marketing itself into that same corner for a year now. SM3 bad. SLI poopie. Jesus is the devil!

This is why buying an Xbox 360 is going to be painful for me as I really hate to be supporting ATI with it. I look at it this way, though - ATI shooting iteself in the foot is going to be good for NVIDIA. :D

[|MaguS|]

This made me laugh, Hes claiming they are better due to using Unified Pipelines. Such a poor argument. Unified Pipelines make a developers job more difficult, The Engine Programmers are going to now have to do a balancing act. This is why Nvidia did not move to Unified Pipelines, They themselves stated at this current time they saw no performance increase from moving to it due to software limitations.

It seems that ATI and MS are really going out to say that thier hardware is better by using poor excuses and using raw numbers without any actually performance and data to back it up.

In all honesty if the Xeon GPU was in the G5s that was running Gears of War demo at E3 then they have no backing since the PS3 UT2007 demo ran a hell of alot better AND so did the SLi Nvidia PC. Sure it was on a G5 and not on the 360 CPU but the PS3 demo wasn't even on the RSX but rather the G70 (which is just a rumor).

[msxyz]

This is why buying an Xbox 360 is going to be painful for me as I really hate to be supporting ATI with it. I look at it this way, though - ATI shooting iteself in the foot is going to be good for NVIDIA. :DWell, I personally find more difficult to support Sony for their crap corporation mentality while I've a love for underdogs. (for the same reason I boycott Micro$oft on the PC market :D ).

Plus Ati and Nvidia are not directly involved: they just sold thier designs so it's up to Microsoft or Sony to put them to good use. While I don't see the unified shader architecture as a "deus ex machina" for realtime cg in games, I think that the industry, willingful or not is heading to that direction.

Richard Huddy is one of the few people in the IT businnes that I respect because while he's cleary trying to support its side, he doesn't make rethoric speeches or blatant, offending statements about its rivals.

[|MaguS|]

Richard Huddy is one of the few people in the IT businnes that I respect because while he's cleary trying to support its side, he doesn't make rethoric speeches or blatant, offending statements about its rivals.

Its just as bad to make comparisons with your new technology with the competitors when nothing is known about your competitors hardware. I cannot call him respectable as an IT professional if his only claim to why his GPU is better is because its using Unified Pipelines. The only known about the RSX is that is has a 550core clock and its supposly more advance then the G70 yet he goes on and states that his GPU is better. Sounds like ATI PR rather then an IT Professional stating his opinion.

[msxyz]

Read the full article :)

He says that the unfied shader technology is better that a traditional approach thus he thinks his product will be superior. Exagerated or not he tries to sell his products based on its supposed qualities and not by downplaying the competition.

Marketing is a fine game of smoke and mirrors. It's fine when you exagerate the qualities of your products, not if you start thorwing bull**** on the competition or hype features that you know you can't deliver.

That's also one of the reasons why I hate Sony. They've been overpromising and underdelivering. They did it with the PS2, no doubt they will do this again with the PS3.

At any rate when it comes down to business I'm quite cinic. I know everybody is out there only to get my money, thus I always try to read behind words and bold statements and trust no one.

[|MaguS|]

Yet Unified shaders is NOT better, Nvidia stated themselves that they saw no performance increase from going to Unified shaders. Hell Unified shaders will hurt more in the long run because developers have to learn it and balance the performances between the shaders. It will be alot easier for developers to program for a GPU that they already know how it works. This was the flaw with the PS2 remember? New hardware that required a new approach, caused alot of headaches.

[evilchris]

eh, sounds like a bunch of FUD to me tbh. xbox has always been ahead of the game in graphics, but it's always been behind in gameplay. i'm sure plenty don't feel this way, but to me the xbox has not a single quality game that wasn't made for the ps2 as well.

It has many, and keep in mind that for any game available on both PS2 and Xbox, the Xbox version was always superior. Case in point: Splinter Cell.

[|MaguS|]

Gameplay wise they were identical so you completly missed his point...

[Vagrant Zero]

It has many, and keep in mind that for any game available on both PS2 and Xbox, the Xbox version was always superior. Case in point: Splinter Cell.

Great. Wonderful. After all I didn't buy a 6800GT to play PC games. I just really like the noise it makes. Erererererewhoosh.

[evilchris]

Gameplay wise they were identical so you completly missed his point...

Actually I didn't, hence the "keep in mind". You just want to argue with me though, carry on...

[AthlonXP1800]

Based on incompleted RSX technical data months ago, ATI reckoned Xbox 360 will outperform PS3 but now the data is completed, ATI totally underestimated the power of RSX. PS3 will crushed Xbox 360. ;)

http://www.hardspell.com/newsimage/2005-6-21-16-10-14-654986702.gif

I wonder what ATI will feel when they read the full data, they will be in a state of shock. :)

[evilchris]

Wow numbers and graphz omg!!!!!!! we all knows numbers and graphcs== teh win.

[brady]

Wow numbers and graphz omg!!!!!!! we all knows numbers and graphcs== teh win.

:lol2:

[kev13dd]

And remember, stat for stat only works IF they are the same architecture. The fact that unified is something never seen before makes a difference. It's claimed to be "more efficient". My brother can life twice the weight I can, but he's terrible at getting anything done. The numbers don't mean anything right now. They can show us how great the RSX will be compared to computers now, but that's it

K

[six_storm]

Guys, guys, guys. Haven't we learned that we should count our chickens before they hatch? Wait until PS3 comes out and then we will decide who's performance king. :D My money is that the PS3 will have a tad bit better graphics than the 360 but the 360 will have a better selection of games, thus being teh win.

[|MaguS|]

My money is that the PS3 will have a tad bit better graphics than the 360 but the 360 will have a better selection of games, thus being teh win.

You honestly think that MS will have better support from 3rd Parties then Sony? I find that laughable, no 3rd Party developer has any reason to not make a game of the PS3 seeing how the PS2 was the most sucessful platform on the martket. Sony will retain thier current support and gain more from parties that use to be exclusive to other companies (Team Ninja and Factor 5, plus others). Many big companies have pledged main support for the PS3 (Kojima Productions for one).

I think this generation will be identical with last years in standins but with Sony having a bigger lead thanks to graphic supority and a large developer support.

Don't get me wrong 360 is gonna have some great support and titles but Unlike Nintendo with the N64, 3rd Parties have no reason to lower or stop thier support for Sony.

[jolle]

And remember, stat for stat only works IF they are the same architecture. The fact that unified is something never seen before makes a difference. It's claimed to be "more efficient". My brother can life twice the weight I can, but he's terrible at getting anything done. The numbers don't mean anything right now. They can show us how great the RSX will be compared to computers now, but that's it

K

yeah, but since ATi has gone for unfied shaders, that means they can flex to provide dynamic balance between Vertex and Pixel shaders.
But when making games for Consoles, you know what you have and stick to that, so I dont think it offers that much performance benefit, more better flexibility for the developers making the games.

Oh well, the numbers speak for the PS3.. its not like we are ever going to se the consoles benchmarked against eachother.. what there is to judge from is the graphics in the games, but that is also somewhat related to how good the artists in the developers team is.. prolly gonna be close enough to not really make that much of a difference..

[six_storm]

Well, I traded in my PS2 a month back for an XBOX due to exclusive (and somewhat better) game selection. And I agree on what you said here:

I think this generation will be identical with last years in standins but with Sony having a bigger lead thanks to graphic supority and a large developer support.

The PS3 *might* have a noticeable graphic gain but it really depends on exclusive games like Halo 3, KillZone 2 (if it's not all hype), and possibly a Ninja Gaiden 2 or Forza Motorsport 2? Just remember that until the hardware is set in stone in combination with a final game build for both systems, we don't really know which one is better.