View Full Version : Will R520 kill 7800gtx?
killahsin
06-23-05, 04:35 AM
i'm just wondering where the 520 is. I still havent heard of it reaching their board partners yet. Thats got me really wondering whats going on. so far I think i have heard of only one manu having it. And this was almost a month ago.
bkswaney
06-23-05, 04:54 AM
The 7800GTX is running with higher AA in that test. It's the way HOCP benches now, best playable settings according to them.
I enjoyed [H] review very much.
I think the GTX is CPU limited for the most part.
As for ati's 520 being 32 pipe I say it's BS.
I do not think we will see a 32 pipe card this year.
Look at the trans count on the 7800 and then
just think about it. ATI would have to have one
huge chip to pack everything they need "features"
and 32 pipes in a chip.
ATI will do good to get out a 24 pipe
card by the end of the year. Mark my words.
ATI is in deep doo doo at this point.
Vaporware is all they have at this point.
Elderblaze
06-23-05, 05:01 AM
ATI's not in anymore trouble then Nvidia was with 5900/9800 fiasco, hell they might be better off even.
We knew quite a lot about G70 before the launch. But what do we know about R520? Nothing! So no-one (in spite of ATi) can tell whether the R520 kills the G70 or not. I don't think so but I don't know. So let's wait and see what happens July 26th.
Some developers already have the r520 ;)
ATi is in trouble right now they are being very reactive to nV which is never good this is like the 8500 situation. If they don't have a 9700 up thier sleeves (which in all likelyhood they don't) they are in trouble, because nV might just have another card they can push out just incase the r520 is just a bit faster.
AthlonXP1800
06-23-05, 05:25 AM
I think R520 cant kill 7800 GTX at 2048x1536.
If all the rumours good and bad about incomming ATI products like R520 and crossfire happens to be true.. 32 pipes. more than 10k+ in 3kmark2k5 ,Very very low yield issues.. Crossfire having issues..
Then yes the R520 will kill the G70.... but it will not happen anytime soon. :D most likely around Sep-Oct when they might be able to release the card in retail quantities if the paper launch of the card is around ~July24.
So if the R520 is as good and rumors claim, then people buying a pair of G70's TODAY in SLI i .. will be enjoying an ultra extreme version of the ATi best next generation card ,that can do 12k in 3dmark2k5 not in 3-6 months.. but today. :D
Its really uncertain the *real* release date of ATI answer to the G70. because we already know of the marketing tricks sometimes companies do to sell their products.. Im more skeptic now of any "Release date" of ATI products more when there are very strong claims from many realiable sources of their shields issues.. and we already know what happened with the X800xtpe fiasco..that were the issue was diferent ,still was a problem that delayed some months their product. announced in early May 2004 with the x800pro , and re-launched again 4-5 months later with only few hundreds of those available in late in summer..
So in the best case i see the R520 hitting shelves early SEpt. if they launch in the end of JUly. and in the worst case late December.. the Truth could be in the middle.. which puts October as the time when people will see the G70 killer in their hands. and thats a long wait for hardcore gamers.. looking the best possible experience in their games now. :)
a side note..If ATI delays too much the R520.. around the release of the Xbox360 ,they could end killing the sales of their own product ,victims of their own competition, because not many people will have the money to buy an $400-$500 console AND a top of the line $600+ graphics card. All PC Hardware gaming parts should go down by the end of year once Microsoft release their next gen console. So i think the *timing* of the release of G70 and R520 are more significant this year than in any other.. because of the console market competition.
Good points, and some average ones.
Because of nVidias very, very good setup of availability at launch, ATi really is under alot of pressure to put out soon. Late Aug I can see, but Sept is too far.
I can imagine nVidia knowing that ATi will come out with a SM3.0, 90nm low-k chip that will have higher clocks than what nVidia will have, so they made a good assumption that ATi will probably have to work out some kinks and therefore have some availability probs. nVidia knew if the cards were released at the same time they would probably lose, so they hammered ATi, not by releasing a "better" card (time will tell), but by making ATi look as if they didn't even show up for the fight!
Very smart. This launch really is much better than I've seen nVidia, ATi, or even AMD and Intel do within the last 4-5 years.
I think R520 cant kill 7800 GTX at 2048x1536.
Why's that? Does ATi not include that resolution in their drivers?
Vaporware is all they have at this point.
Well, I suppose something not yet being launched does equal vaporware, so yes, you're right!
:rolleyes:
AthlonXP1800
06-23-05, 05:37 AM
Why's that? Does ATi not include that resolution in their drivers?
http://firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_7800_gtx/images/bf21600.gif
http://firingsquad.com/hardware/nvidia_geforce_7800_gtx/images/bf21600.gif
That only shows that at that high of a resolution you need more than 16 pipes working together to get playable frame rates.
There is no indication yet that the R520 will perform otherwise (conventional wisdom, anyway).
nutball
06-23-05, 05:47 AM
While the #'s show that 7800gtx is roughly equal to 2x6800U (especially where it's most needed, HDR), don't R520 specs look much more impressive?
Which specs are those? As far as I'm aware R520 hasn't been launched yet, so we don't know the specs.
What I *have* seen is people post specs listing all sorts of fantasies (eg. 32 pipelines), and other folks who are in a *very* good position to know the real specs comment along the lines of ("you are going to be disappointed").
Seems to me that the general consensus is that G70 is bandwidth limited, hence only having 16 ROPs backing up the 24 pipes. More ROPs would make the bandwidth starvation worse of course. So short of going to a 512-bit bus or eDRAM (face it, neither of those is going to happen) then R520 will likely face the same constraints (even if it does have 32 "pipelines").
Which specs are those? As far as I'm aware R520 hasn't been launched yet, so we don't know the specs.
What I *have* seen is people post specs listing all sorts of fantasies (eg. 32 pipelines), and other folks who are in a *very* good position to know the real specs comment along the lines of ("you are going to be disappointed").
Seems to me that the general consensus is that G70 is bandwidth limited, hence only having 16 ROPs backing up the 24 pipes. More ROPs would make the bandwidth starvation worse of course. So short of going to a 512-bit bus or eDRAM (face it, neither of those is going to happen) then R520 will likely face the same constraints (even if it does have 32 "pipelines").
Very good analysis, couldn't be more correct :cool:
Lfctony
06-23-05, 06:01 AM
Which specs are those? As far as I'm aware R520 hasn't been launched yet, so we don't know the specs.
What I *have* seen is people post specs listing all sorts of fantasies (eg. 32 pipelines), and other folks who are in a *very* good position to know the real specs comment along the lines of ("you are going to be disappointed").
Seems to me that the general consensus is that G70 is bandwidth limited, hence only having 16 ROPs backing up the 24 pipes. More ROPs would make the bandwidth starvation worse of course. So short of going to a 512-bit bus or eDRAM (face it, neither of those is going to happen) then R520 will likely face the same constraints (even if it does have 32 "pipelines").
According to this article, the R520 is intended to be a 32-pipe card. The inquirer has mentioned a couple of times that the R520 will be a 32-piper. ATI is supposedly having trouble with it though, so final specs can be anything. As I mentioned before, the only specs I've read that appear realistic is the intention for a 32-pipe card and SM3.0.
http://www.penstarsys.com/editor/company/ati/r520/
According to this article, the R520 is intended to be a 32-pipe card. The inquirer has mentioned a couple of times that the R520 will be a 32-piper. ATI is supposedly having trouble with it though, so final specs can be anything. As I mentioned before, the only specs I've read that appear realistic is the intention for a 32-pipe card and SM3.0.
http://www.penstarsys.com/editor/company/ati/r520/
While it is very likely that ATi will release a 32-pipe card, they don't need to. If ATi releases a 24-pipe card at greater than 550Mhz, it would (in theory) beat a G70.
I hate to agree with the Inq, but they seem to be predicting very well how this war is turning out:
G70-->R520-->Higher clocked G70 (Ultra)--->32-pipe R520/Higher clocked 24-pipe R520
Lfctony
06-23-05, 06:53 AM
Correct. After all, specs have not been announced yet, the R520 can be of any configuration.
I think its a bit harder to call this now since ATi has been riding the sweet wave of the R3xx since they released it, and tweaking it up.
But now they have to do some radical changes to get up to the latest feature set..
Instead of taking all calls as FP24 (which has worked great sofar) they are gonna have to go FP16/FP32 (partial and full precision) and add SM3.0 (as the first part is required for SM3.0), plus they will most likely add the capabilities of storing the image in the framebuffer in a FP16 format aswell, since HDR is the latest rage..
So for ATi its more of a new design, while NV has been there for a while and could just soup up the NV4x design to stay on the highest featureset..
So.. ATI has been doing great since R9700, but then they havent really designed anything really "new" since, and that makes it a bit hard to call the outcome... (to be fair, NV4x wasnt THAT far away from NV3x, and G70 is very close to NV4x)
It can either blow the 7800GTX out of the water, end up about as fast, or slower..
Going to be exciting to se it nevertheless..
If R520 will be able to do AA with HDR, it will win the heart of the enthusiasts. But it's only a niche market. Most people cannot tell the difference between AA and AF when they're asked to describe what these acronyms stand for. In the end, it will all come down to brute force. The card with the higher FPS will win the race for the mainstream market amd it will push the sales of the lower models.
Pandora's Box
06-23-05, 08:48 AM
considering the 7800GTX can play far cry at 1600x1200 with 8xaf and hdr on with frame rates in the 60fps range AA becomes irrelevant.
If R520 will be able to do AA with HDR, it will win the heart of the enthusiasts. But it's only a niche market. Most people cannot tell the difference between AA and AF when they're asked to describe what these acronyms stand for. In the end, it will all come down to brute force. The card with the higher FPS will win the race for the mainstream market amd it will push the sales of the lower models.
The problem is doing aa with HDR, HDR is a post process effect, which will cause quite a bit of rework to the graphics subsystems to get AA working properlly with it. At the moment AA is done after all geometry and textures are computed and during the final rendering. HDR is done before final rendering. HDR is just a single texture or multiple textures depending on how its done by the program. This is what causes the problem, can't do AA on a texture since texture data can't be analyzed for edges of different objects. Transperent AA is a step towards this though.
HDR is a post process effect
No it isn't. You're thinking of Bloom.
Proper HDR is rendering everything in high dynamic range throughout the entire pipeline. Its not a post process effect.
Bloom is a post process effect, which doesn't even need HDR to work, but looks better in an HDR engine.
No it isn't. You're thinking of Bloom.
Proper HDR is rendering everything in high dynamic range throughout the entire pipeline. Its not a post process effect.
Bloom is a post process effect, which doesn't even need HDR to work, but looks better in an HDR engine.
why would ya do HDR without bloom ;)
are you sure
Yes I'm very sure ;)
Yes I'm very sure ;)
ah got me editting lol, you're right but there really is no need for HDR without bloom with it too. Unless you want a more drab outcome
why would ya do HDR without bloom
Its upto the developer whether they want bloom adding on or not. I'm just saying HDR and bloom are quite seperate things. You dont have to have bloom in an HDR engine, and you dont need HDR to do bloom effects.
You previously talked about doing HDR via textures. Thats basically a hack because X800 and pre NV40 cards dont support FP16 frame-buffers. So you have to render everything to a floating point texture, then convert down at the end to a standard 32bit frame-buffer.
NV40 and NV50 on the other hand do support floating point frame-buffers, so you can do an entire engine with HDR throughout the whole pipeline without resorting to render to texture hacks.
serenity
06-23-05, 10:09 AM
According to this article, the R520 is intended to be a 32-pipe card. The inquirer has mentioned a couple of times that the R520 will be a 32-piper. ATI is supposedly having trouble with it though, so final specs can be anything. As I mentioned before, the only specs I've read that appear realistic is the intention for a 32-pipe card and SM3.0.
http://www.penstarsys.com/editor/company/ati/r520/
Josh prefers to make up wild stories, remember he also made up a story that G70 was 90nm according to his "sources".
Edited by MikeC
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