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MonarchX
07-05-05, 12:49 AM
WTF? I tried 71.89 WHQL, 77.30, 77.72 WHQL, Xtreme G 77.62. and 80.40 Beta forceware drivers on my 6800 card.

EVERY SINGLE one gives me the SAME effect in GTA:SA. Textures look like they are rendered in software mode. Looks a LOT like nearest neighbor filtering (worse than bilinear).

I tried NOT adjust any setings after completely erasing and installing new drivers. SAME EFFECT. I tried playing with AF settings, turning them ON and OFF, forcing TRILINEAR, and leaving on NONE. Letting is be at DETERMINED BY APPLICATION. I used RivaTuner as well for that, and it makes NO difference,

I also tried enabling and disabling mipmaping in GTA:SA but that also made no difference....

Turning frame limiter on and off makes no difference. Adjust AA makes no difference. Resolution makes no difference. Also, I had this BEFORE a clean reformat and install of WinXP SP2.

This does NOT happen on my ATi Radeon 9800 Pro PC though!

What the hell?

I uploaded a little video http://quantumdefect.com/YoyoMana/GTASA.avi (you will need XviD codec). Notice how the road further away is grainy, as if its software rendered. Its NOT supposed to be like that, I guarantee you. Its silky smooth (no grainage at all) on my 9800 Pro.

Also, LOD is set at 0.0!

SH64
07-05-05, 02:01 AM
I'm having this problem too.
the strange thing though is when i installed the 77.72 the first time they were gone .. now they are back for some wierd reason!!!

Thats why i'm playing it now on my ATi system even though its faster with the 7800 rig.

MonarchX
07-05-05, 02:11 AM
It seems we are the only 2 people who get this problem!

SH64
07-05-05, 02:28 AM
It seems we are the only 2 people who get this problem!

There are others !
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=646216#post646216

MonarchX
07-05-05, 02:41 AM
Damn, so nVidia does suck as far as visual quality goes after all! More than one game has this than its either a bug or **** quality drivers.

I just noticed I get the same crap in UT2004 if I look close!

SH64
07-05-05, 02:48 AM
Damn, so nVidia does suck as far as visual quality goes after all! More than one game has this than its either a bug or **** quality drivers.

I just noticed I get the same crap in UT2004 if I look close!

Nah nVIDIA does not suck at IQ .. actually i've seen other games which look to have better filtering than ATI's .. exmaple :
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33820524

as long as you set you settings in the CP @High Quality which ensures all optimizations are disabled the picture should look as clean as silk.
GTA:SA is the only game i notice to have this issue even with HQ settings set. i guess its a driver issue nothing more because i've seen it gone as i said when i first installed the 77.72 but it came back for some unknown reason. maybe my video cards transition had something to do with it.

MonarchX
07-05-05, 02:56 AM
Nah nVIDIA does not suck at IQ .. actually i've seen other games which look to have better filtering than ATI's .. exmaple :
http://www.rage3d.com/board/showthread.php?t=33820524

as long as you set you settings in the CP @High Quality which ensures all optimizations are disabled the picture should look as clean as silk.
GTA:SA is the only game i notice to have this issue even with HQ settings set. i guess its a driver issue nothing more because i've seen it gone as i said when i first installed the 77.72 but it came back for some unknown reason. maybe my video cards transition had something to do with it.

UT2004 has the same effect for me but its much further away and Guild Wars gives me shimmering as well. I JUST noticed.

OpenGL games are far better with nVidia though.

SH64
07-05-05, 03:01 AM
UT2004 has the same effect for me but its much further away and Guild Wars gives me shimmering as well. I JUST noticed.

OpenGL games are far better with nVidia though.

I dont have Guild Wars & dont have UT2004 installed to test that but have you made sure you set the drivers Control Panel to High Quality ?? not just the game profiles but in the global settings as well because with many games the global settings override the game profiles so be aware.
also try clamping the LOD BiaS. it helped reducing shimmering for me on Pariah (a game powered by Unreal2 engine just like UT2004)

fellix
07-05-05, 05:23 AM
Some time ago, I've noticed this issue with the missing bilinear filtering on my old 9600XT playing NFS:U or NFS:U2, can't remember which one was.

MonarchX
07-05-05, 01:29 PM
I dont have Guild Wars & dont have UT2004 installed to test that but have you made sure you set the drivers Control Panel to High Quality ?? not just the game profiles but in the global settings as well because with many games the global settings override the game profiles so be aware.
also try clamping the LOD BiaS. it helped reducing shimmering for me on Pariah (a game powered by Unreal2 engine just like UT2004)


Yes, clamped, high image quality. CS:S also has shimmering.
Does nVidia know about this crap? I think its pretty horrible.

OWA
07-05-05, 01:57 PM
I haven't noticed any shimmering with the later betas and official drivers. With some of the earlier ones, it could get pretty bad in some games but in recent drivers, it hasn't been an issue (at least for me).

MonarchX
07-05-05, 05:24 PM
I haven't noticed any shimmering with the later betas and official drivers. With some of the earlier ones, it could get pretty bad in some games but in recent drivers, it hasn't been an issue (at least for me).

People in other forums also have the same problem I do with other games.

It must be a bug of some sort!

OWA
07-05-05, 09:12 PM
Hmm, I've seen others comment that it was solved for them in recent drivers also (not specifically for GTA but just in general with most games). I don't have GTA:SA so I can't really comment on that one though. Are you sure they aren't using older drivers? It was a pretty big issue for a while with some of the older drivers but for me it has become a non-issue with the later betas and official drivers. Although, let me add that was with my 6800 Ultra. I haven't had a chance to look for such things with the 7800GTXs. So many pieces of my system are new that it's taking me a while to get things stable and running like I like it. Hopefully at some point I'll get around to playing games again. :)

Also, I don't notice it in UT2004 but maybe it's a specific map that you're seeing it on? Can you list which one you're testing on?

Edit: Actually, I do think I see it playing CS. I could see some shimmering in the grass when I was running on the sidewalk. It doesn't look quite the same as the 6800 series shimmer I remember seeing.

MonarchX
07-05-05, 09:33 PM
Hmm, I've seen others comment that it was solved for them in recent drivers also (not specifically for GTA but just in general with most games). I don't have GTA:SA so I can't really comment on that one though. Are you sure they aren't using older drivers? It was a pretty big issue for a while with some of the older drivers but for me it has become a non-issue with the later betas and official drivers. Although, let me add that was with my 6800 Ultra. I haven't had a chance to look for such things with the 7800GTXs. So many pieces of my system are new that it's taking me a while to get things stable and running like I like it. Hopefully at some point I'll get around to playing games again. :)

Also, I don't notice it in UT2004 but maybe it's a specific map that you're seeing it on? Can you list which one you're testing on?

Edit: Actually, I do think I see it playing CS. I could see some shimmering in the grass when I was running on the sidewalk. It doesn't look quite the same as the 6800 series shimmer I remember seeing.

I tried like every driver since 71.89 including Xtreme G drivers.
I used driver cleaner pro to remove drivers as well.

j0j081
07-06-05, 06:37 AM
Damn, so nVidia does suck as far as visual quality goes after all! More than one game has this than its either a bug or **** quality drivers.

I just noticed I get the same crap in UT2004 if I look close!
nice job with the bashing. way to show off your newbishness.

MonarchX
07-06-05, 10:29 AM
nice job with the bashing. way to show off your newbishness.

So the fact that nVidia has this problem has been known for some time, then?
Is that what makes me a newbie?

xrotanimret
07-06-05, 02:35 PM
So the fact that nVidia has this problem has been known for some time, then?
Is that what makes me a newbie?
No, it makes you a ****ing troll. Why don't you get bent and go back home to Rage3D?

MonarchX
07-06-05, 04:09 PM
No, it makes you a ****ing troll. Why don't you get bent and go back home to Rage3D?
Cuz I bought nVidia?

deepa
07-07-05, 03:40 AM
I forced antialiasing 8x in the nvidia config panel and the grainy effect almost totally disappeared ...but i lost many fps :thumbdwn:

Tried tweaking the LOD bias, but doesn't help.

(6800GT/barton3000/1GBcorsair//forceware80.40)

deepa
07-07-05, 03:58 AM
It looks like AA in the game settings has (almost) no effect, and AA in the nvidia config panel is (almost) useless under 8x.

RpPRO
07-07-05, 04:16 AM
No, it makes you a ****ing troll. Why don't you get bent and go back home to Rage3D?

Imagine someone rants about an nvidia gpu. Does it make him an ati or rage3d fanboy?
:eek2:

particleman
07-07-05, 12:27 PM
The reason why 8X AA helps is because it is a hybrid supersampling mode. Supersampling helps because it effects insides of textures as well, unlike multisampling.

GamerGuyX
07-07-05, 01:57 PM
Imagine someone rants about an nvidia gpu. Does it make him an ati or rage3d fanboy?
:eek2:

Rage3D is the place ATI fanboys go to be ATI fanboys.

SH64
07-07-05, 05:40 PM
Setting the AF to application prefrence gave better overall look than with it set to 16x heh ..

tomilius
07-23-05, 12:54 AM
This thread sure got annoying. Anyway, I have the issue. Let me begin by saying I did not have this issue with my Ti4200--repeat, there was no shimmering with the Ti4200! At least, anisotropic filtering certainly didn't cause it, forced or not. Supposedly it's a GeForce 6/7 Series thing. There's a thread about it over here as well (not nVNews, sorry) that I've been participating in but people don't seem to be reading my overkill posts fully and haven't been very competent when it comes to testing the problem (my posts I believe are on the end of page 2 and on 3 and 4):
http://forums.guru3d.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=141364

From what particleman at the other forum said:
Originally posted by particleman
There were some really long threads about this issue on nvnews when the 6800 was first released. Eventually nVidia released a driver with the negative LOD clamp and that seemed to help fix the problem in most games, but not all. It also resulted in slightly blurrier visuals in some games. The shimmering is not due to any brilinear transition optimization, because the 5900 did not have this problem. The root of the problem is on cards after the 6800 nVidia does not take enough texture samples for the level of AF being applied, and their mip map blurring is insufficient on certain mip map layers. On ATi cards the problem isn't entirely non-existent, it is to the point where it isn't noticeable in most case and much much less compared to the 6XXX and 7XXX cards.

Anyways the two settings that I find which help fix the shimmering most are the Image Quality setting: always turn it up to High Quality (HQ isn't the same as quality with all optimizations disabled), and turn on the negative LOD texture clamp.

Here are some really long nVnews threads on this from last year, there are a few people that insisted they didn't notice it but there are A LOT of people that have noticed the shimmering.

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=35592&highlight=shimmering

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=38888&highlight=shimmering

His post seems to have been the most helpful out of the entire thread. SH64 is right that setting the AF to Application Preference, as well, is an important thing to do to reduce the issue, especially in GTA: SA. Setting AF to Application Preference, if and only if the in-game quality setting is above Low (I don't know the exact setting, but I know it's not there on High or Very High, I don't know about Medium). AND, this setting must have been chosen before a game was loaded or begun. If you start out on Low and change it to High in-game during a game, the texture shimmering/aliasing will remain as exaggerated.

I would like to make point out a few things I pointed out in that other thread.

Anisotropic Filtering Forced at 16x via nVidia Control Panel
http://usera.imagecave.com/tomilius/forced-af-1.JPG

Anisotropic Filtering Left at Applicatipn Preference
http://usera.imagecave.com/tomilius/in-game-AF-1.JPG

Alright, so you noticed the angles aren't exactly the same. That's hard to do, you know! You have no right to think such things! Still, that has little to do with this problem. Notice the increased moire patterns in the sidewalk with AF forced, yet the street stays the same, as far as can be told from the shots (I see no difference in the street between either image). You can see some enlargements of the images below, optionally with marks, to emphasize the effect forcing AF via the driver really has on GTA: SA as far as certain textures go.

Enlarged Forced AF:
Marks (http://usera.imagecave.com/tomilius/forced-af-big-marks.PNG) -- No Marks (http://usera.imagecave.com/tomilius/forced-af-big.PNG)

Enlarged App Preferenced:
Marks (http://usera.imagecave.com/tomilius/in-game-AF-big-marks.PNG) -- No Marks (http://usera.imagecave.com/tomilius/in-game-AF-big.PNG)

Now, it's interesting that some textures are affected and others seem not to be affected at all, isn't it? ... Yeah. That's all I really have to say that I know about that other than what particleman said in the quote at the top of this post--other than that this problem didn't occur with my Ti4200, remember :)--seriously, I never would have forced on anisotropic filtering with that card if it didn't make an improvement. I never noticed shimmering at all with it; I notice those things.

As for drivers, I've tried many different ones including optimized ones and none have eliminated this shimmering. Using trilinear filtering in GTA:SA alone also leads to different results for the "street" and the sidewalk--while the street seems to smooth itself out to the point in which the double-white line isn't even visible, the sidewalk certainly does not; it becomes more aliased and full of moire patterns instead. (NOTE: To use trilinear fitlering, I forced off AF in the control panel and used Force Mipmaps: Trilinear. I also turned off the Trilinear optimization. I didn't choose High Quality for Image Quality, but this does not help in these circumstances or with AF when it's forced on in GTA:SA regarding these certain textures.)
http://usera.imagecave.com/tomilius/mipmapping-again.JPG

I have taken two videos, one with AF forced on and the other with application preference. As you'll see, even application preference has shimmering, but it was a different sort of shimmering, not exactly the terrible aliasing seen in the first.

You'll need to access my directory to view the videos. Once there, scroll down and find the video of your choice. It will appear not to be a link, but it is, just click (or right-click, Save Target/Link As) the name.

Directory: http://members.lycos.nl/nessyh/ (I'm not from the Netherlands, but don't tell! It's good hosting.)
Video 1: aniso-death.wmv
Video 2: auto-af.wmv

Notice how the first video seems to sparkle and the second seems to shimmer, from my understanding of the words. This is how I will define each from now on (whether or not that makes a difference to you is a matter of opinion ;)). Actually, the second one isn't exactly shimmering though I've been calling both that... What is it called, anyway? What should I call it? Sliding? "Jumping?" nVidia horse carp (yes carp)? I'll just stick with shimmering unless anyone has a better word for it. Sparkle isn't the best word for the first video itself, but if you've seen the effect you'll know it fits pretty well.

Other games that have at least some degree of shimmering that I've actually tried (all of them) include: Guild Wars, Half-Life 2. That's right. I don't have that many games.

The shimmering in Half-Life 2 occurs pretty badly even with the in-game AF settings, and the shimmering in Guild Wars can be distracting on certain textures as well, such as this kind of clotted sand texture at the area I'm at now.

How to describe how it looks in motion... ever used Active Worlds (I doubt it)? Remember the z-buffer issues in it? Ever seen z-buffer in anything? Well, it is reminiscent of having, in certain patches, two identical textures on top of each other only one is translated a little bit to the left or to the right or some direction by a few pixels, and having them compete for visibility. That's just a description of the effect, but I would not say any game is responsible OR that it's a z-buffer issue. Somebody somewhere mentioned it was the game's poor use of textures that causes the problem (or poor textures themselves), but would you consider HL2's textures poor? I wouldn't, I just think they shimmer a bit with Anisotropic Filtering on in any form, though it's certainly less noticeable with trilinear filtering, and setting the IQ in the control panel to High Quality helps a bit but not fully. Even WITH trilinear filtering, there's still some shimmering. And I must again repeat that my trusty Ti4200 didn't do this (before you tell me to put it back in, I no longer have access to it :().

In Guild Wars, choosing an IQ of High Quality reduces the shimmering and aliasing (in the reference area with the clotted reddish sand) to a point at which a screenshot could not convey the shimmering's remnants. The shimmering is there, but it's further in the distance and less noticeable.

In Half-Life 2, increasing the IQ to High Quality does nearly the same thing, though again, shimmering is there, and not necessarily only a tiny bit but not an amount that would be too noticeable in a screenshot. Still, because it's more noticeable than Guild Wars, I have some cropped shots and made a comparison image. Each image was taken from the exact same angle, you'll be happy to know. The order is as follows, from left to right, AF/mipmapping settings in-game, with the first thing being Image Quality set in control panel and the second being in-game AF or mipmapping: High Quality, 16x AF; Quality, 16x AF; High Quality, Trilinear.
http://usera.imagecave.com/tomilius/HL2-comparison.JPG

Notice how some of the pixels in the first two (anisotropic filtering), on the rock, really stand out? This is more true for the second, Quality (not High Quality like the first) anisotropic filtering shot than any of the others. In the trilinear filtering shot, the JPEG quality isn't good enough to make any shimmering known if there was any, and the sort of blocky-sectiony look it has if you zoom in is a direct result of this sad compression. Unfortunately I took a bunch of larger shots and saved them as JPEG only so the shots were JPEG-compressed twice, but it works for comparison as the differences are actually slightly exaggerated with the compression. The characteristics I pointed out were based on my observations in the game, though, and were not tainted by poor JPEG quality.

Put it together and what have you got? Not quite bippity-boppity-boo, more like bippity-boppity-boo-hoo (that was corny)... or aliasing, or shimmering, or sparkling. I hope this post kind of explains and demonstrates the problem at hand.