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ssohn
07-05-05, 03:02 PM
Due to some issues I had, I returned my BFG 7800GTX/OC's and purchased two ASUS EN7800GTX's.

While ASUS says that their 7800GTX's have core clock speed @470MHz in their press release, in fact, EN7800's I have are running @430MHz just like NVIDIA's reference boards.

So I called ASUS Tech. support today to find out what the deal was. After I briefly talked about what the problem was, I was connected to Tech. support guy.

And here's how it went:


Tech: What kind of problem do you have?
me: Well, my graphic cards are not running at advertised speed.

Tech: Go on.
me: ASUS says in their press release that my EN7800GTX's are supposed to run @ 470MHz core speed, but mines are running @430Mhz.

Tech: Well, that's no big deal.
me: Excuse me?

Tech: I mean if they are running like 100MHz underclocked, it's a problem, but 40MHz is no big deal.
me: It is big deal to me. I paid premium price for this device and I expected them to run at advertised speed.

Tech: Okay hold on.
me: ....

Tech: Did you read the specification on our website?
me: Yes.

Tech: I says that your graphic cards are meant to run @430Mhz core speed.
me: Well, did you read the press release? It says that it's supposed to run @470Mhz.

Tech: Well that's a typo.
me: What? I don't think it's typo, since many hardware news sites said that ASUS ones had 470Mhz core speed.

Tech: I have to talk to our technician and I'll email you what I find out.
me: okay.



Well, I later found out that ASUS did list core speed @430MHz on their specification page, while their press release said it's @470MHz.

So I am not sure which one is right, so I may just have to wait until ASUS to email me.

Anyway, I can't believe that ASUS tech said 40MHz is no big deal. :(

Dr.Nick
07-05-05, 03:19 PM
With the 7800 came a whole bunch questions about core clocks. Check out the BFG OC thread below for more info. Also check out this site
http://www.bytesatwork.be/shop/product.php?productid=20543

OWA
07-05-05, 04:06 PM
Due to some issues I had, I returned my BFG 7800GTX/OC's and purchased two ASUS EN7800GTX's.

While ASUS says that their 7800GTX's have core clock speed @470MHz in their press release, in fact, EN7800's I have are running @430MHz just like NVIDIA's reference boards.


I thought it was advertised as 430 + a geometric delta of 40? Some of the other discussions (threads) have been trying to figure out exactly what that means.

gram_vaz
07-05-05, 04:21 PM
^ that's true OWA. there is nothing wrong with your card ssohn. it's just they way it was marketed misinforms many people. there seem to be a couple of components in the g70 core that run at a different speed. one part runs at 40mhz above stock speed and this is what asus marketing was talking about.Originally posted by Crashing Edje
By Guru3d:



Posted by Hilbert Hagedoorn

I was discussing something with Unwinder today (Rivatuner programmer) as he has had a lot of reports of unusual core clocks for the GeForce 7800 GTX. After investigating it myself it seems that the minute you startup a 3D application, the GPU core frequency jumps towards 468 MHz (should be 430), a ~40 MHz difference is reported with any GeForce 7800 GTX. You can only measure this once you actually follow the clock real-time (see image below).

I just verified it, during some new test sessions with core clock monitoring we noticed that the G70 although clocked at 430 standard will in 3D applications immediately jump towards 468 MHz. Even overclocked at 480 Mhz the clock will jump towards 522 MHz, again that ~40 MHz difference. What is going on in that G70 GPU huh ??

After puzzling this and actually noticing that ASUS even has a marketing phrase for this called "geometric clock delta", they are actually advertising a 470 MHz product under that name with 'geometric clock delta' advertised.

As it looks right now, we will have to drop the idea of 2 frequency clocks on the G70 card (core/memory). What is going on with that 40 MHz differential ? We currently think that the Pixel and Vertex pipes or triangle setup might be clocked differently to explain that differential. Or even Shader Clock 430 MHz/Rop Clock:430MHz/Geometry Clock:470MHz.

We're not sure, but this is really interesting ! I fired off emails towards NVIDIA and hopefully I can get you a more detailed answer soon.

Update 1:

Answer from NVIDIA:

Hey Hilbert,

As our chips become more advanced, we are implementing more complex clocking inside the chip. 430MHz is the primary clock speed of the chip and can be verified by fill rate tests.

We will work with Rivatuner to read the correct registers in order to report the right clock.

Hope this makes sense.

Now if you disect that answer (as vague as it honestly is) we can make note of the fact that NVIDIA uses "Primary" clock speed. Obviously, there's a secondary clockspeed running also. Very likely there are surely different clocks for different pipes.

If 430 remains the primary clock then why can Asus (check that here) advertise it as 470 ?

That would be somewhat misleading to you, the consumer as you think it's an uber Ultra version or something like that. They sincerely use this to advertise:

Engine Clock 470 MHz**
**NV clock(430MHz)+Geometric Delta clock(40MHz)

As it seems nobody can explain the 40 MHz differential properly, yet is is being used as marketing gimmick, consumers automatically assume it's 470 MHz where that's not 100% true.

+ 40 MHz ?
In 3D applications the GeForce 7800 GTX immediately jumps towards 468 MHz, something new is happening for sure in that G70 core.

Source: guru3d

JohnEJohn
07-05-05, 04:26 PM
Maybe in this case but what about people that purchased their 6800GE . Brought the Asus 6800Gamers edition on an impulse buy. On the box it said 16pipes However we all now know it has 12. I asked for an explanation and they basically made me feel like a retard. Those 4 exta pipes dont really do anything was the explanation i got. What a load of crap!

ssohn
07-05-05, 04:45 PM
You are probably right.
But it is very confusing as ASUS lists its sepcification as follows:
http://img37.imageshack.us/img37/7905/asusspec0sl.jpg
from ASUS press release
http://www.asus.com/news_show.aspx?id=1137

^ that's true OWA. there is nothing wrong with your card ssohn. it's just they way it was marketed misinforms many people. there seem to be a couple of components in the g70 core that run at a different speed. one part runs at 40mhz above stock speed and this is what asus marketing was talking about.

-=DVS=-
07-05-05, 08:56 PM
Whoa Asus PR sucks im glad i didn't buy one , i was decideing between them and BFG , thank god i went with BFG :eek:

Kamel
07-05-05, 09:02 PM
So I am not sure which one is right, so I may just have to wait until ASUS to email me.

Anyway, I can't believe that ASUS tech said 40MHz is no big deal. :(

that wont happen... asus has the worst tech support ever. that's exactly what they do, WHEN you can get a hold of them, they pawn you off to some sort of generic crap. they tried their best to convince me that my processor was bad on 3 different asus boards, got me a DFI board, all my problems went away... yea, it was definitely the processor o_O. not to mention when i did get a hold of asus, they said "all of our blah blah [cut] give me your info and we'll call you back". doing this from 3 different phone numbers i haven't received a response to this very day.

ricercar
07-05-05, 09:58 PM
ASUS tech said 40MHz is no big dealSo 10% fewer megahertz is no big deal, huh? Sell your products for 10% less than the advertized price, and tell me that your loss in profits are no big deal.

asus has the worst tech support ever
:werd:
Took me 18 months to get a reply from ASUS on one issue. Of course by then the answer was "your warranty is expired."

Clay
07-05-05, 10:05 PM
ssohn: Have you checked your clock speed with RivaTuner? Unwinder now says that the chance that RT is reporting incorrect clocks is next to zero. So, for now at least...RT seems to be reporting the correct clock speed.

My BFG7800GTX default is 460 as shown in the NVCPL. RT reports 501 though...so there's that 40MHz delta.

ssohn
07-05-05, 11:21 PM
Clay,

I ran RivaTuner, but Hardware Monitoring is not working. :(
http://img286.imageshack.us/img286/3865/hwmon1ma.jpg

Unwinder
07-06-05, 12:39 AM
ssohn: Have you checked your clock speed with RivaTuner? Unwinder now says that the chance that RT is reporting incorrect clocks is next to zero. So, for now at least...RT seems to be reporting the correct clock speed.

My BFG7800GTX default is 460 as shown in the NVCPL. RT reports 501 though...so there's that 40MHz delta.

RT's core clock is correct, but not the only one. It seems like there are 3 parts of the core, which can be clocked with different clock generators. RT and 3DMark show the clocks of the first one, the second and the third are really clocked with 432MHz. Next version of RT will probably monitor the clocks for all parts of core.

Unwinder
07-06-05, 12:42 AM
Clay,

I ran RivaTuner, but Hardware Monitoring is not working. :(
http://img286.imageshack.us/img286/3865/hwmon1ma.jpg

I've already replied to your question in RT's primary forum on guru3d and will do it once againg. If you're using RT, you shouldn't ignore any warnings displayed by it. I bet that there was a warning telling you that the driver has not been loaded (e.g. due to lack of administrative rights in your user account) and that RT's functionality will be reduced due to lack of driver.

Clay
07-06-05, 12:47 AM
RT's core clock is correct, but not the only one. It seems like there are 3 parts of the core, which can be clocked with different clock generators. RT and 3DMark show the clocks of the first one, the second and the third are really clocked with 432MHz. Next version of RT will probably monitor the clocks for all parts of core.Oh ok. Thanks for clearing that up. Were these three parts of the core present in the NV3x or NV4x family but just all at the same clock? Or, is this segregation of the core new to the NV7x family?

BTW, my BFG 7800GTX is running stable at a RT reported 525MHz core (485MHz reported in NVCPL). Does that sound right? It seems pretty high to me.

ssohn
07-06-05, 12:51 AM
I've already replied to your question in RT's primary forum on guru3d and will do it once againg. If you're using RT, you shouldn't ignore any warnings displayed by it. I bet that there was a warning telling you that the driver has not been loaded (e.g. due to lack of administrative rights in your user account) and that RT's functionality will be reduced due to lack of driver.

Unwinder
Thanks for your input.
But the fact is that I have never been alerted any warning screen at all.
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2518/rivatuner0kx.gif

Unwinder
07-06-05, 01:46 AM
ssohn

"No additional information available" in RT's device info line means that:
1) Either IO driver is not loaded (you should see warning in that case)
2) Or you use RT, that doesn't support 7800 (i.e. 15.5 or older)

thanosAIAS
07-06-05, 03:13 AM
Unwinder
Thanks for your input.
But the fact is that I have never been alerted any warning screen at all.
http://img167.imageshack.us/img167/2518/rivatuner0kx.gif


A Flatliner! :p


Maybe it's dead :angel:

What version of RT are you using? The latest is 15.6

AthlonXP1800
07-06-05, 03:50 AM
ASUS probably disabled hardware temp in the BIOS? I think it will need to update new BIOS to active hardware temp and increase the core clock to 470MHz.

bkswaney
07-06-05, 04:36 AM
Man what a mess with all this 7800 clock speed stuff. :thumbdwn:

ssohn
07-06-05, 10:41 AM
A Flatliner! :p


Maybe it's dead :angel:

What version of RT are you using? The latest is 15.6


thanosAIAS,

I am using RT2 rc15.6
And Unwinder and I are discussing this issue on guru3d.com ;)

Clay
07-06-05, 11:58 AM
Just an FYI about what Unwinder said. I had rc15.5 and it gave me an initial warning to get the latest release as soon as I fired RT up with my 7800GTX newly installed. I uninstalled rc15.5, installed 15.6 and RT works just fine now.

5150 Joker
07-06-05, 02:21 PM
Man what a mess with all this 7800 clock speed stuff. :thumbdwn:

Yeah that along with the cold bug doesn't instill much faith in this product. I just hope all this gets cleared up sooner than later.

OWA
07-06-05, 03:02 PM
What cold bug and what's wrong with having dynamic clock speeds (or maybe it's better to say performance levels)?