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jAkUp
07-08-05, 10:38 PM
I wouldn't say I agree with all of it, but definetely an interesting read :)

http://www.next-gen.biz/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=337&Itemid=2

Here is a small snippit:
For a dozen years Id has been the top dog, the guy to beat, the pater familia to the first-person shooter. It can look back on a legacy of six games, each one an unstoppable sales juggernaut, a technological milestone. You didn't need to know what the review score was for an Id title. You only knew that you needed to buy it.
But one day, the industry changed. The consumer changed. It's hard to put one's finger on it. Maybe it was Counter-Strike. Maybe Unreal Tournament. Something happened to the genre between Quake III and Doom 3, and Id somehow didn't take it into account. Call it braggadocio, or hubris, but Doom 3 is no longer the top dog in the FPS market.

Yes, it's upsetting. I tried not to admit it either. But it's undeniably true.

Banko
07-08-05, 10:54 PM
What happened was that Doom 3 wasn't meant to be an online game.

nVestor
07-08-05, 11:02 PM
It's possible Carmack's heart isn't into it anymore with the Armadillo project and all. :( I dunno, just a guess though.

CaptNKILL
07-08-05, 11:06 PM
No doubt about it... they lost their dominance. I think its because people are wanting more complex and interesting games these days. It used to be enough to just have a nice looking shooter that only needed 5 buttons and had no depth but was action packed and had good online play... that doesnt cut it anymore really. Doom 3 was basically that minus the good online play.

I think Quake Wars will be something though... that looks like its a huge step in the right direction for id. Lets hope it lives up to our expectations.

jAkUp
07-09-05, 02:09 AM
It's possible Carmack's heart isn't into it anymore with the Armadillo project and all. :( I dunno, just a guess though.

Nice server ;) I was playing BF2 on it for the last hour :afro:

Back on topic, yea, Carmack just doesn't seem to be into coding as much as he once was. Sucks :( The PCGaming scene could use a few more opengl guru's such as himself :)

evilchris
07-09-05, 02:11 AM
The guy is brilliant and he makes video games. It was only a matter of time before he got more into real intellectual pursuits that actually matter imo.

GlowStick
07-09-05, 02:32 AM
Has iD lost the crown? Yes, they lost it a long time ago around Counter-Strike beta 7 i feel. After CS took the world by storm, iD knew they were beat, and decided that since they could not win at multi-player they would make the ultimate single player game. However, unlimited resources and no deadline allowed the game to be uber cool, if it were only 2002.

Unfortuantly, the only category they can put a stake on is best graphcis, however at a great preformacne cost.

Their most 'played' game today would be Wolfenstein: Enemy Territory, and that hoenstly isnt a true id game, since Splash Damage did all the game mechanics for it. However, that is why I hope the new ET will rock!!

Simply put, iD needs to start setting dates so their ideas and games dont get old before they are released. A big thing many people point out, is for Doom3, there was many maps and models absolutly 100% unchagned since the leak that happend two years eariler????

Brimstone7
07-09-05, 05:33 AM
Carmack may be a genious when it comes to the techinical aspect of games but his viwes on gameplay are dated. I loved Doom 3 more than most people but even I realize that it's an "old-school" shoot-em-up without much depth. There were a few parts in the game where level designers tried to sneak in some interesting puzzles and encounters and such but they were few and far between.

From what I have read, this was mostly due to Carmack's vision. I can understand not having a "Use" key, but that doesn't mean you have to eliminate all interaction with the environment. Having a story is great but don't force the player to stop the action every 5 seconds to read a new PDA.

Fortunately, it looks like Quake 4 has ironed out a lot of these problems. However, in this case Carmack really has just programmed the engine and left the design to Raven (or Xatrix or whomever is actually designing the game.) I hate to say it, but I think this is the right thing to do for iD: leave the actual game design to someone that knows what they are doing.

LycosV
07-09-05, 10:25 AM
Yes id lost it's FPS Dominance. The moment Unreal Tournament came out it was all downhill for id. Is this a sad thing? No. Before games used some form of the Quake engine, now they use some form of the Unreal engine. UT just had so many more options than Quake 3 did when it came to multiplayer, and the engine was so much more robust. id didn't still hasn't released a multiplayer counter to the original UT, let alone UT2003 or UT2004. By not releasing any updates to their engine id lost out. I think we're better off for it. The Unreal devleopers give code updates to everyone who licenses it and they update the engine constantly. With id, you license the Quake __ engine and that was all you got.

holmes
07-09-05, 11:05 AM
I think id and the term FPS are pretty much synonymous. Despite the competition being pretty steep nowadays, I still believe id is at the very forefront of the scene. While I know many people view Doom3 MP to be a dissapointment, it is still pretty damn good. And I know there are quite a few others who feel the same way. There has been a definite improvement in quality servers and number of players in the Doom3 scene, much more so than 4-5months ago. I remember back then logging on and seeing mostly empty servers, but now it's the other way around. It's popularity may be small compared to the "big boys" like UT2004 and CS:*, but I think more and more people are finding out just how much the MP has improved since the game was released... (A LOT). Regardless, I think Quake4 and ET:QW will be major players when the are unleashed..
:)

Edge
07-09-05, 12:16 PM
I've never thought of them as being the dominant force in FPS games to begin with. Sure, they did a lot for the genre with Doom and Quake (although I also think Marathon deserved more attention than it recieved), but I've never thought of them as *the* icon behind FPS gaming for a while now. They made fine FPS games back then, but then games like Duke Nukem 3d, Goldeneye, Unreal, and Half-life started popping up and were able to offer things not in their games, and suddenly the high-profile FPS class became crouded. Especially nowadays, when practically unheard of developers can come out of nowhere with an amazing FPS game (like Crytech did with Far Cry). They aren't a bad developer, especially when it comes to engines, but as far as FPS games go they've just been another name on a long and still expanding list.

DEaD_IRiS
07-09-05, 06:49 PM
Quake 3 engine was an awesome FPS engine. Seemed most games based on it or a modified version of it were worthy of buying. Maybe Doom 3 engine is too expensive to license or something. I don't know why there aren't a plethora of games lined up to use it. As an SP FPS engine I thought it was great I just didn't enjoy the gameplay that much. Fingers crossed for Quake 4.

steamedrice
07-09-05, 06:52 PM
i started fps gaming with quake 1 and was all into it, the community was VERY alive in quake for many years with MANY tournaments and you'd hear how Thresh the #1 quake player won John Carmack's ferrari who couldn't afford insurance and had to sell it etc. The thing about quake games were that they were twitch skill based, if you were good, you were good, there was no luck spraying to save you in those games.

thats what I loved about ID games. Not to mention the endless amounts of mods out there since quake with ctf/weapons factory/tf etc.

*ahh the memories*

but sad to say I don't think any other fps will be like quake1-3 were in terms of online fps fun including ID atm. I've read some blogs of carmack and he seems to be wanting to do other things instead of programming his entire life. Not to mention hes a father now just as doom 3 finished.

Namrok
07-09-05, 10:03 PM
You know, I think the second Romero left iD was when they were in bad shape. Romero was the guy who refined the gameplay, while Carmack made the technology. Now they don't really have a guy who understands fun anymore. Say what you will about Romero, but provided someone keeps his nose to the grindstone, he can make fun games. He's just not a good person to leave to their own devices.

jAkUp
07-09-05, 10:05 PM
...daikatana...

Sorry, I just had to say that :D

evilchris
07-10-05, 12:40 AM
Romero's ego swallowed him whole.

Greg
07-10-05, 01:01 AM
That article sounded like a bunch of opinionated, judgemental crap. Now, here's some of my own opinionated crap... Id was never about making middleware. It was about a small bunch of guys making games they wanted to. When they disagreed, they parted ways. The licensing of technology was always secondary.

Id momentarily donned crowns of excellence, not by doing something first, but doing something well. Ultima Underworld was a far more complex 3D FPS, but Wolf3D ran fast and played great. Doom3 was not the first per pixel lit and shadowed game, but it runs at 30fps on my Geforce3, (FarCry is a slide show on that machine), and had atmosphere lacking in other games, if only for a short time. The article was no more relevant than our own forum posts of 'is Farcry better than Doom or Unreal'. It's different people making different softare to achieve different goals.

The article is full of rubish points like Carmacks quote of 'multiplayer is everything'. People change. If you asked me about PC games years ago, I was a flight sim nut, now I couldn't care less about flight sims. I read an Id interview a while back where Carmack said he didn't play multiplayer games much anymore. He obviously found other activities more interesting. I constantly read about these 'imps jumping out from behind you'. Sure they did, but I played with sound on, heard their spawn, and blasted away with shotgun. Sure it was repetative, but you played the demo to know what to expect. 'Tricking' the AI enemies into attacking eachother was fun, but the whole FPS experience of the original Doom was so novel at the time, we look back on it far too fondly. Every game ships with Death Match multiplayer mode (it's almost a publisher requirement). I only played Doom3 multiplayer once. People were cheating, it wasn't fun, and I never tried it again. If I wanted to play Death Match, I'm sure such a game mode already exists in UT2004 ;) Fight mechanics and AI? I am yet to see a FPS game without laughable AI. In Half Life, I defend myself by holding a pepsi can. The enemies figure, if I can't see them, they can't see me, so they stop firing.

I don't know why I bothered writing so much drivel. I'm sounding like the article, a whole bunch of fuss over nothing.

nvnews-reader
07-10-05, 10:20 AM
It's possible Carmack's heart isn't into it anymore with the Armadillo project and all. :( I dunno, just a guess though.


Maybe now that he's been OWNED by some Microsoft money he will get back to writing games full time.

:alien:

Seph gPu
07-10-05, 06:33 PM
I personally don't feel ID is the same powerhouse. Quake 3 Arena was fun but no sp. Doom 3 looks nice and follows the doom forumla but that type of gameplay just doesn't cut the mustard in 2005. And the fact that they handed off ROE and Quake 4 to other developers and just keep/kept a "close eye"...I don't know....when I hear ID now I think passe'.....doom, doom2, quake, quake 2...no..they sure aren't the same.

I'd say Epic has the crown right now. Solid gameplay, solid graphics, solid netcode, just a damn good, clean engine for gamers and modders alike. Doom 3's modding tools are ugh! And the source engine is hands down the worst engine made.ever.

Gaco
07-10-05, 07:31 PM
(...). And the source engine is hands down the worst engine made.ever.

I can think of A LOT engines worse than Source... :p

Gabrobot
07-10-05, 07:56 PM
Doom 3's modding tools are ugh!

The tools aren't extremely newbie friendly, and it would be nice if they were more polished, but as current-gen tools they're pretty solid. The workflow is quite nice, although I suppose you'd have to know what you're doing to really appreciate it. Just about everything is a text file making editing pretty simple...even when there's a tool to edit something, I and many other people often find directly editing the files in a text editor to be faster and more productive...but again you have to know what you're doing to appreciate it.

Intel17
07-10-05, 10:10 PM
Back on topic, yea, Carmack just doesn't seem to be into coding as much as he once was. Sucks :( The PCGaming scene could use a few more opengl guru's such as himself :)

Wait just a minute, that statement is completely false, according to what Carmack told me via email;


I have never said that I am planning on retiring, just that I felt it might get less interesting in a couple years. I could be wrong about that.

Right now, I am having the best time programming that I have had in years.

John Carmack


Oh, and OpenGL and programming in themselves aren't the hard part about graphics, in fact API's and Programming languages are easy compared to the complex linear algebra required to do a good renderer (well, of course you need some very tight OpenGL and C++ skills, but the maths and problem solving is the real meat of graphics engines, programming is just a way to utilize the algorithms you come up with).

Marcos
07-11-05, 10:32 AM
romero was a pedophile

hazindu
07-11-05, 11:15 AM
In terms of games (not engines), I havent considered ID as a dominant force since the Quake 1 days.

Zelda_fan
07-11-05, 11:27 AM
This is rediculous. Of course ID is at #1. There is more competition, and Epic is right on their heels, but atm ID is still at #1. Complain as you will about Doom3, it is the best FPS I've played since soldier of fortune. Some people may say other games like HL2 and FarCry had better gameplay, but I just say Doom3 had a better "feel" when playing it. Doom3 was heart pounding scary, while HL2 and FCry just irritated me at times.

Of course when you hype a game to be the second comming people are going to be disappointed, but overall Doom3 was an awsome game, and ID is still #1 IMHO.