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RobHague
07-10-05, 10:25 AM
....has been greatly exaggerated? Sorry i just wanted to voice some concerns :thumbdwn: (might be a little late to the party though so sorry ;)).

With the release of the 7800GTX, and Nvidia announcing that they are not producing an AGP part... do people think its a bit premature? This has possibly been mentioned in here and some people have strong views, either for the decision “Go NV! AGP IS 01D JU|\|k0rz !! PCIE Ru13z” or against it “NV SUCK0rz” etc

The fact remains a hell of a lot of people hav powerful systems, that use AGP. Not all 'new' boards have PCIe as standard. But apart from that what of the ‘professional line’ of cards, and what of other platforms?

Quadro’s…

Someone please point out to me a Single CPU, Socket940 board for “workstations” that supports PCIe? Because I cant find any. Not that it would matter if there was one released right now – I mean all of those Dual and Single CPU Opteron systems out there in graphic design/home offices and such now have no upgrade path from NVIDIA. I mean no AGP Quadro’s based off the 7800 now no? Considering how much Dual CPU+ boards can cost im sure companys would be more willing to shell out for more RAM than having to re-do a system just so they can upgrade the graphics.

Also NVIDIA have just removed themselves from the Mac hardware world now too.... The 6800 Ultra for Mac seems to have vanished (for some reason) and you can only spec up a 6800GT on apples site…while ATi have their X850 XT on offer still. Say the 6800U is available elsewhere... so what people are going to be looking for a 7800GTX if they have that kind of money to spend. And there isnt one. I don’t know of any plans for the Mac (PowerMAC) to receive PCI-Express, so that means that only ATi has the top performing part for Mac now. This may come as a supprise but Mac Users are people too! ;)

Does any of this make sense to anyone else? XD lol

Thoughts..

$n][pErMan
07-10-05, 12:23 PM
I have said it before and will say it again.... nVidia would be dumb as sh!t to not release an AGP version of this card. Its to early to switch over for a lot of people and they will just goto ATi to save money if they are not ready for PCI-E or a full upgrade of all thier parts.

nvnewbie
07-10-05, 01:12 PM
y'know what? i think this model of card isn't going to be on AGP Version beacuse it's on the high end (and probably targeted to SLI power and rich users). The price tags is one of the highest ever seen and i think it's a way to make it clear: the latest GeForce is one of the most powerful gpu's on the block until now.

If this one is GTX, let's expect a GT model or something like that. There's enough time for Nvidia to make this happen before Ati's R520 hits the market with an AGP version.

Banko
07-10-05, 01:18 PM
There are a bunch of mobos based on the nforce4 pro chipset usually they are dual socket but here is a single socket based one:

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16813186055

RobHague
07-10-05, 01:38 PM
And i thought i had exhausted all the manufactures, thanks for the link Banko i will see if its available somewhere for the UK too. Although its not really needed anymore...

My gumble is that, im switching my PC system to a PowerMac G5 and i have two options of video card, 6800GT or X850 XT.

In future i wouldnt mind being able to upgrade at a later date (like for UT2007). But if ATi takes a leaf out of NVIDIA's book AGP will die prematurly leaving a lot of people in the lurch.

Is it true that NVIDIA do not make the drivers for their cards under OS X anyone know? Something i heard.

GlowStick
07-10-05, 02:03 PM
This is odd, your upgradeing to a mac and complaining about backwards compatiblity of products. EG 7800 GTX not compatible with OLD motherboards. Hate to say it, your asking for a disaster getting a G5 lol. A g5 will never beable to play UT2k7 in its wildist dreams. And *NEW* macs will support Pci-express via 7800GTX, while your agp mac will not get any upgrade parts.

You really gotta rethink your buying stratagy if you dont like companys going to new standards and *not* providng any type of support or upgrades to the old one, because that stratagy is summed up in one word ... Apple.

If you havent herd already, Apple is switching to Intel. Since all new intel mobos use Pci-express, it is safe to assume all new apples will use Pci-Express.

Now when that happens, there will be no mac 'AGP' upgrade parts what so ever. So, will we end up seeing a thread in one year compaling that Apple has abanonded the G5 and that UTK7 plays at 1fps? Well, thats what apple stands for.

OWA
07-10-05, 02:34 PM
From the 7800GTX FAQ:
Q: Will you use HSI to make AGP-based GeForce 7800 boards?
We are not disclosing plans for AGP at this time, but that is certainly possible with the flexibility of our HSI chip.
Somewhere else, I think I saw them mention they'd let the market decide if it was needed (although maybe that was someone just speculating).

A 6800GT (or 6800U on the PC side) or X850XT are probably more than enough for most people so I'd think that would have the AGP market covered for now. The Mac isn't really a gaming platform to begin with so even those cards seem like overkill for what most people are going to use their Macs for. I mean, if I didn't game on my PC, I'd probably be satisfied with a just a little over integrated video performance and at work, most of the PCs have just a Ti4200 or the like. If you're going with a Mac and still want to game, it would probably be better to buy a console to quench your gaming needs.

RobHague
07-10-05, 03:59 PM
There will be no Intel-powered PowerMac's until 2007, and IBM have just launched a new dual core version of the PowerPC chip too. In 2006 there will be an Intel powered Mac Mini - so i hear but that would be all. I wont have my PowerMac for more than 2 years so i should be good.

Apart from that apple are not going to drop support for all the G3,4 and 5's just because of the move to intel. Considering that the market when they launch will be 99.9% Gx and 0.1% Intel CPU based that would kinda of make apple look VERY bad, annoy a lot of people (like the professional area mac seems to do so well in) and more than likley lose them already existing customers.

A g5 will never beable to play UT2k7 in its wildist dreams.

How do you know? The game isnt out yet - but ive seen plenty of news about it coming for the Mac. Why would they bother to release it on a platform that cant run it? Whats wrong with a Dual G5 setup exactley? I have seen UT2004 running on a PMG5 and it looked amazing on those 20" apple cinema screens.

If you're going with a Mac and still want to game, it would probably be better to buy a console to quench your gaming needs.

I might just get a console too at a later date (like a Revolution or the XBOX360) but i really need an all in one unit and i want to break from PC's.

Anyhow hopefully the X850 should last out a while and ill just see what happens i guess.

GlowStick
07-10-05, 05:19 PM
There will be no Intel-powered PowerMac's until 2007, and IBM have just launched a new dual core version of the PowerPC chip too. In 2006 there will be an Intel powered Mac Mini - so i hear but that would be all. I wont have my PowerMac for more than 2 years so i should be good.

Apart from that apple are not going to drop support for all the G3,4 and 5's just because of the move to intel. Considering that the market when they launch will be 99.9% Gx and 0.1% Intel CPU based that would kinda of make apple look VERY bad, annoy a lot of people (like the professional area mac seems to do so well in) and more than likley lose them already existing customers. Hm what i mean by drop support is, they will not mfg or order any 'new' video cards that will work in the G5 macs. For example, lets say you have a G4 with an AGP 8x slot. The Geforce 6800 GT/Ultra DDL uses agp 8x wow! You decided its time for an upgrade right, agp fits in agp!!!

Wrong, as I learned by calling the source '1-800-MY-APPLE' they said the 6800's ONLY work in G5 machines. Could the be wrong? Maybe, or maybe some G4 owners figured a way to just make it work.

However, my point is the same, once a prodcut is replaced by a newer model. Apple dose not desgin and order new upgrades for their older model. Now, its not saying that a third party company like ATi could decided to make a new video card for G5's, its just unlikely.


How do you know? The game isnt out yet - but ive seen plenty of news about it coming for the Mac. Why would they bother to release it on a platform that cant run it? Whats wrong with a Dual G5 setup exactley? I have seen UT2004 running on a PMG5 and it looked amazing on those 20" apple cinema screens.I was commenting on preformance more than if Epic will port the game. Since on a top of the line G5, doom3 gets about 25fps at 640x480, it is reasonable to predict that a game that isnt even out yet, will be more demanding on hardware, and will run slower. 320x280 anyone?

RobHague
07-10-05, 05:36 PM
Wrong, as I learned by calling the source '1-800-MY-APPLE' they said the 6800's ONLY work in G5 machines. Could the be wrong? Maybe, or maybe some G4 owners figured a way to just make it work.

Even so, i wont have to worry about that for around 18 months-2 years. So it shouldnt be a problem... like any computer it will become 'dated' but mac's do seem to hold more value than PC systems in the long term. Well so it would seem.


I was commenting on preformance more than if Epic will port the game. Since on a top of the line G5, doom3 gets about 25fps at 640x480, it is reasonable to predict that a game that isnt even out yet, will be more demanding on hardware, and will run slower. 320x280 anyone?

25FPS at 640x480?? :confused:

http://www.barefeats.com/image06/rx85-doo.gif

Radeon X850 XT* = overclocked Radeon X800 XT using ATIccelerator II to simulate the X850 XT
Radeon X800 XT = ATI Radeon X800 XT Mac Edition (8X, 256MB)
GeForce 6800 Ultra = nVidia GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL (8X, 256MB)
GeForce 6800 GT** = underclocked GeForce 6800 Ultra using Graphiccelerator to simulate a 6800 GT

It gets 38FPS at 1920x1200 there..... :eek2:

GlowStick
07-10-05, 05:59 PM
Even so, i wont have to worry about that for around 18 months-2 years. So it shouldnt be a problem... like any computer it will become 'dated' but mac's do seem to hold more value than PC systems in the long term. Well so it would seem.Then how are you complaing about agp not being supported, its live has been about 1000 times longer than ANY mac part EVER.




25FPS at 640x480?? :confused:

http://www.barefeats.com/image06/rx85-doo.gif

Radeon X850 XT* = overclocked Radeon X800 XT using ATIccelerator II to simulate the X850 XT
Radeon X800 XT = ATI Radeon X800 XT Mac Edition (8X, 256MB)
GeForce 6800 Ultra = nVidia GeForce 6800 Ultra DDL (8X, 256MB)
GeForce 6800 GT** = underclocked GeForce 6800 Ultra using Graphiccelerator to simulate a 6800 GT

It gets 38FPS at 1920x1200 there..... :eek2:
Not quite


1024x768 Default High Settings
Barefeats1: 45.1 fps (Shadows off: 53.5 fps)
Barefeats2: 47.1 fps (Shadows off: 55.9 fps)
Mac1 : 15 fps
Mac2 : 11.5 fps
Mac3 : 9.4 fps
Bearfeats is useing some heavy optmizations. And no shadows etc. They also use bilinear filtering. However, its not bad, its good. They provide the time to make the game playable for mac users, more power too them. One thing mac users like to point out is "lets run and publish tests with r_skiprender 1" but those should be ignored because they are pointless.

RobHague
07-10-05, 06:13 PM
Well considering what Mac1,2 and 3 are....


Barefeats 1
2.5Ghz PowerMac x 2 G5 processors. 256M NVIDIA GeForce 6800 Ultra. 4GB ram

Barefeats 2
2.5Ghz PowerMac x 2 G5 processors. 256M ATI XT800 XT. 4GB ram

Mac1
2.0GHz PowerMac x 2 G5 processors. 128MB ATI 9600XT. 2GB ram (Revision B)

Mac2
1.8GHz PowerMac x 1 G5 processor. 64MB NVIDIA FX5200. 512MB ram (Revision A)

Mac3
1.5Ghz G4 PowerBook. 128MB ATI 9700. 512MB ram (2004)

(http://macologist.org/portal.php?topic_id=1015)


9600's and FX5200's... not supprising.

GlowStick
07-10-05, 06:30 PM
Well considering what Mac1,2 and 3 are....



9600's and FX5200's... not supprising.
Your missing the point. The benches of 1920x1200 are with low quality images. No trilinear filtering, probly no shadows. Probly no video eather ; )

If you search for stanard doom3 benchmarks you will find that it can barley do.

Lets look at MacWorlds standard benchmarks

G5 Dual 2.5Ghz
X800 XT video

1600x1200 High Quality No AA 29.5fps (Unplayable)

Now, how dose with a very silimar system, the preformance go UP, and just WAY UP with a higher resolution? Useing the BearFeat as a refrence, it seems there isnt *much* preformance diffrence between the X800 and 6800's maybe about 1fps.

So how is that happeing? They used diffrent settings to make it seem better. But the bottom line is, doom3 is barely playable at 640x480, why would a game that in many opinions, looks more high tech such as UT2K7, play better?

RobHague
07-10-05, 06:33 PM
http://www.barefeats.com/radx850.html

...1920x1200 and High Quality with dynamic shadows ON...

So im confused. You are saying they are lying? As far as i can see these are the more recent benchmarks.. and drivers. The system is a G5 2.5Ghz btw they said.

I also noted a small excert

My point is that with high end graphic cards, you don't reach ultra high framerates at low settings, but you don't lose significant speed at high settings.

Anyways i shall find out for myself soon enough i guess.

GlowStick
07-10-05, 06:50 PM
http://www.barefeats.com/radx850.html

...1920x1200 and High Quality with dynamic shadows ON...

So im confused. You are saying they are lying? As far as i can see these are the more recent benchmarks.. and drivers. The system is a G5 2.5Ghz btw they said.
Since there is no patch for doom3 mac, that cant effect the results. Newer drivers could defiantly be optmized for it. However, he dosent go into much detail into the settings. However, if you look at other parts of his site, he goes into deatail of how to get amazing fps though tweaks in the doom3 engine. Its safe to assume he used those, witch are valid tweaks for someone who wants to play doom3 on a mac.

But back to my orginal point, lets make up a hypothetical situation.

Nvidia releases a AGP 7800 GTX
Apple releases a new PowerMac lets call it G6 that has AGP
Apple makes a mac version of the AGP 7800 GTX

There is a very high chance that it will work only with their new PowerMacs. Simply because they have done it before many times.

ss284
07-10-05, 08:46 PM
So this has become a pissing contest on why the 7800 gtx agp should be made for the high end mac community, which already has a proprietary upgrade path, and has less than 2.5% market share(in which only 10% of that would ever consider this card), and is migrating to intel based pci-e systems in a year?

Upgrading an agp system to a pci system isnt a lot of work, and costs no more than 100 dollars to replace the motherboard.

Btw, no one would buy a mac to game, except robhague apparently.

RobHague
07-10-05, 08:51 PM
Not really.

It already ended. I quickly realised that the word 'mac' invokes a lot of heated debate and emotion. So im keeping my questions strictley to the mac commity forums instead so no need to worry.

Btw, no one would buy a mac to game, except robhague apparently.

I can do what ever the hell i like with a Mac thanks. It's not just for that reason alone of course not, but the Mac has plenty of games. Just because its a Mac does not mean you cant be entertained with it.. I dont see the need to keep my PC around too.

Plus, its not cheap for a lot of people to goto PCIe.. but then its not worth debating anymore =)

ricercar
07-11-05, 03:42 AM
Is it true that NVIDIA do not make the drivers for their cards under OS X anyone know? Something i heard.True when I worked at NVIDIA. Apple wrote the Macintosh GeForce drivers.

Hyper s
07-11-05, 04:41 AM
Dont forget soon (about 2-nd half of 2006) PCI-E will be changed to new second revision of these bus like AGP now

mustrum
07-11-05, 07:01 AM
I have a powerful AGP based system and i never ever would buy a 7800GTX AGP. It would be sucha waste since you wont be able to sell that thing in 2 years ever.
The 6800 Ultra is more than enough still and availabkle for AGP very cheap allready.
Those people who want the best of the best right now and are willing to pay the dollar for the 7800GTX sure can afford a new motherboard for 120 bucks too.

Mithan
07-12-05, 01:58 AM
Its a good thing for me that nVidia isn't releasing a 7800GTX AGP model.
Why?
I would have to purchase one :) Since I dont feel like upgrading to PCI-E this year, I will wait for teh latest and greatest next year, from whatever company releases it.

adpr 02
07-12-05, 09:55 AM
I have only read the topic name. I have not read the first topic 'cause I was really lazy. :p However. Before you say anything about agp or pci-e, think of the PCI when AGP first came out.

At first it was nothing special, pci was still the best, and then agp took over with videocards completely. This is exactly what is happening now.

I HAVE seen benchmarks with a 9800xt on agp, and with 9800xt on pci (NOT PCI-E), and there was a difference of 1 fps. We didn't really need agp, and we don't really need pci-e. However, now with big rigs like 7800 and rx52 with all it's pipelines, we are starting to use a lot more of the AGP's Buss. The way PCI - E was thought out was that it will take a while to make everybody change, and by the time they did, and the agp buss would start being used a lot more, PCI - E would be allready there.

FastM
07-12-05, 11:45 AM
I dont see a problem with it, the 6800GT and Ultra's are fast enough for a single card.

ricercar
07-14-05, 04:13 AM
Actually. AGP 8× (aka AGP 3.0) does not offer enough bandwidth to make SLI worthwhile. Even with PCI Express, SLI is CPU starved.

Let them eat cake.