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Riptide
07-15-05, 02:30 PM
Not real encouraging news here...

http://www.engadget.com/entry/1234000143050582
With Longhorn, Microsoft will begin pushing opium. Well, technically it’s OPM. However, opium might be a good option for those livid that the video content being sent to their pristine 24-inch Dell LCD monitors is purposefully being “fuzzied” (more on that later).

The article isn't real clear on whether this affects DVI as well.

gram_vaz
07-15-05, 05:13 PM
um, i think it said the technology centers around dvi.

Riptide
07-15-05, 08:19 PM
Actually it applies to both from what I've read. And it's not cool either.

six_storm
07-15-05, 11:17 PM
Silly Microsoft . . . that's for you Rip old buddy :D

(jk)

Riptide
07-15-05, 11:41 PM
If my 2405FPW is still around when Longhorn comes out there will be no way that I upgrade if this article is true. Ridiculous, having to change out your display when you upgrade your OS.

nutball
07-16-05, 04:30 AM
*shrugs* Just sounds like yet another reason not to have anything to do with "content" creators on Microsoft operating systems.

Come on people, these companies do listen to one thing, and that's the sound of your dollar bills staying firmly inside your wallets. It makes them wake up at night in a cold sweat. Don't buy their crap, and they'll change their ways.

Rakeesh
07-16-05, 04:43 AM
AFAIK the next windows will be full of digital restrictions management perks for many to enjoy. I don't know what gets people so hyped about the next windows. Maybe they hope it makes their desktop look prettier?

GlowStick
07-16-05, 05:40 AM
Hm, I think what they mean in that article is kinda like the macrovision protection that has somehow (read bribes) made it into law that all VHS devices have to have.

Basicly, they are assumeing that someone could create a dvi device to record output. So they will only allow full resolution video to be displayed to 'trusted' devices. How dose your device become trusted? By paying royalties to the people who paied off the politions.

But in any case, the whole 'drm' scheem will only apply to people who download DRM material. It dosent mean that suddenly a DivX pirate rip is going to suddenly stop working. It means that if you legitly buy a DRM managed movie. You can only play it on approved devices. You want to display it on your top of the line 2005 model 10,000$ plasma tv. Too bad, you have to buy a new one. However, if you would of downloaded the same movie illegaly, you will have all the rights your entitled too.

Basicly, DRM in longhorn will only hurt people who choose to go legit.

Its ironic that the RIAA and MPAA strive to push away the people who actually buy their products.

nutball
07-16-05, 05:55 AM
But in any case, the whole 'drm' scheem will only apply to people who download DRM material. It dosent mean that suddenly a DivX pirate rip is going to suddenly stop working.

It will if their plans work out like they want them to. In their world, once all computer and consumer audio-visual hardware is DRM enable, you won't be able to get non-DRM'd movies or music from any source.

It won't be possible to read the contents of the disc unless your application is "trusted". It won't be possible to intercept the data-stream at any point from being read off the disc to being displayed on your screen or played through your speakers. It won't just be the operating system stopping you either, it'll be the hardware itself, so it's not like it's a case of slapping Linux on your box and you're good to rip -- the hardware will stop you doing that. That's what they're after, full end-to-end coverage.

The pirates will have to break the encryption and circumvent the copy-protection (both illegal in the US now AFAIK, and punishable with a ten-stretch in Guantanamo Bay).

Riptide
07-16-05, 09:27 AM
I don't know what gets people so hyped about the next windows. Maybe they hope it makes their desktop look prettier?At least partly yeah. I've also seen Linux users cream their jeans about the same sort of effects though.

jAkUp
07-16-05, 11:16 AM
What about my 22" CRT :(

ricercar
07-16-05, 01:58 PM
you won't be able to get non-DRM'd movies or music from any source.Yeah, like that's ever going to happen with the web.

The copy-protected business model is neither sustainable nor practical. Historically, only DVDs and iTunes are a success--e.g. millions of units sold--with copy protection, and look at how effectively programs like DE-CSS and Jhymm strip it away completely.

We'll ALWAYS have no-DRM content, whether it's been stripped by consumers or was never added by the creator.

With Longhorn's PVP-OPM display protection. or whatever that acronynm was, someone will come up with a software or hardware workaround even before Longhorn is in final release.

Rakeesh
07-16-05, 02:46 PM
The pirates will have to break the encryption and circumvent the copy-protection

Well, those are two different things. Breaking encryption is rarely done these days. It only works for DVDs because they have a rather weak encryption.

Whats actually funny though, is the trusted computing has one major vulnerability: you'll never be able to protect the contents of the memory chips, at least not without reducing the speed of the computer dramatically.

We'll ALWAYS have no-DRM content, whether it's been stripped by consumers or was never added by the creator.

And thats just the thing, all it takes is for just one person to rip the unencrypted content. From there it gets *****d on p2p networks beyond anybody's control, instantly making their highly elaborate copy protection scheme useless.

Frankly I don't know why they insist on bothering with this. All they should do is put a light measure in place to prevent casual copying. Doing anything beyond that will cost them lots of money and yield little results. Book publishers discovered this the hard way decades ago, as some of you may recall the books that required a red filter in order to read.

I guarentee you that if this ever surfaces, and assuming that they can lock down the PC enough in the first place that the crackers don't just rip the encoded content directly from that first, the monitor itself would always contain vulnerabilities. E.g. somebody could intercept the signal at a point after the decryption and before the actual bit rendering.

At least partly yeah. I've also seen Linux users cream their jeans about the same sort of effects though.

Honestly I don't get it really. Every now and then you see longhorn screenshot threads as if its a huge deal and people start drooling over it for what? The only reason I used to like upgrading windows is because newer versions were a bit more stable. Windows xp is already pretty rock solid though, so I don't see any reason to move beyond it. Does longhorn make your horn longer or something? I mean seriously, why would anybody even care about just UI enhancements when there are already various shell replacements available that look better anyways?

ricercar
07-16-05, 03:24 PM
deleted - i misunderstood aw post at first but only agree now.

Riptide
07-16-05, 03:52 PM
Honestly I don't get it really. Every now and then you see longhorn screenshot threads as if its a huge deal and people start drooling over it for what? The only reason I used to like upgrading windows is because newer versions were a bit more stable. Windows xp is already pretty rock solid though, so I don't see any reason to move beyond it.
I agree with you actually. While I think animations and gee whiz window effects are cool/neat, and worth putting in there, it's definitely not something that screams superiority to me. Even going from 2000->XP really wasn't a night and day thing. Which is probably why XP is just version 5.1 of NT while 2000 was 5.0. In reality it wasn't a huge change. They were both stable, and looked and worked fine. XP is prettier, has a few other advancements/features, but it was nothing like going from MS-DOS to 95 for instance. Now THAT was a major change. Going from XP to Longhorn is also not likely to be a change in the overall experience on the scale of MS-DOS->9x.

A new file system? Some pretty windows effects w/Avalon? More DRM support (weeee)? OK there are a few other things but really it's not THAT big of a deal. So like you, with XP being as good as it is, I'm not really looking forward to this either.

Zelda_fan
07-16-05, 03:55 PM
there is no way microsoft would do something this incredibley stupid. I mean honestly, who would buy their OS if they did this?

nutball
07-16-05, 04:00 PM
Yeah, like that's ever going to happen with the web.

The copy-protected business model is neither sustainable nor practical.

I hope you're right, but that's not going to stop "them" trying.

We'll ALWAYS have no-DRM content, whether it's been stripped by consumers or was never added by the creator.

With Longhorn's PVP-OPM display protection. or whatever that acronynm was, someone will come up with a software or hardware workaround even before Longhorn is in final release.

Like I said in my original post, it's not just the OS. It's the CD/DVD/whatever drive, the CPU, the BIOS, the OS, the HD, the graphics card, the sound-card, the monitor. The whole kaboodle. All of them will be DRM-aware, and won't do anything with DRM-enabled "content" if asked to do so by un-trusted applications.

DE-CSS works because you can put a protected disc in a non-DRM-aware reader and go from there. That's not representative of the New World Order that the "content" creators and the IHVs are trying to create. In their world DE-CSS won't be possible because it'll have to crack through the OS, BIOS, CD/DVD drive firmware, SATA drivers, and so on just to read the content at the byte level.

nutball
07-16-05, 04:00 PM
there is no way microsoft would do something this incredibley stupid. I mean honestly, who would buy their OS if they did this?

Anyone who buys a Dell?

Rakeesh
07-16-05, 05:16 PM
there is no way microsoft would do something this incredibley stupid. I mean honestly, who would buy their OS if they did this?

They probably will, and people will probably buy it. Not that it is going to change anything.

Like I said in my original post, it's not just the OS. It's the CD/DVD/whatever drive, the CPU, the BIOS, the OS, the HD, the graphics card, the sound-card, the monitor. The whole kaboodle. All of them will be DRM-aware, and won't do anything with DRM-enabled "content" if asked to do so by un-trusted applications.

All it takes is just one of those devices to be compromised, and the whole chain of trust becomes useless no matter how secure the content is.

GlowStick
07-16-05, 10:13 PM
I hope you're right, but that's not going to stop "them" trying.



Like I said in my original post, it's not just the OS. It's the CD/DVD/whatever drive, the CPU, the BIOS, the OS, the HD, the graphics card, the sound-card, the monitor. The whole kaboodle. All of them will be DRM-aware, and won't do anything with DRM-enabled "content" if asked to do so by un-trusted applications.

DE-CSS works because you can put a protected disc in a non-DRM-aware reader and go from there. That's not representative of the New World Order that the "content" creators and the IHVs are trying to create. In their world DE-CSS won't be possible because it'll have to crack through the OS, BIOS, CD/DVD drive firmware, SATA drivers, and so on just to read the content at the byte level.
No, it never works, there is and has been platforms of what you speak of designed JUST around that, and they fail very quickly. What are these magical devices? Game Consoles. PlayStation, PlayStation2, Xbox, GameCube, Nintendo 64, PSP, Gameboy are all desinged around security so no one can copy the games or play copyed games. they all fail.

I dont see how this will be any diffrnet other than it will be weaker because insted of haveing one company try to hide their protection flaw, they have to make sure the protection works on hundreds of devices from hundreds of OEM's. It will only be harder for them to try to make it unbreakable.

My point still stands. While your average high school drop out may not beable to rip a DRM dvd. The release groups will still be offering the DVD's that conform to fair use.

Whats ironc is, the RIAA and MPAA wonder why people dont want their products, when they treat their paying customers like criminals.

PSYCHODAD
07-16-05, 11:21 PM
Whats ironc is, the RIAA and MPAA wonder why people dont want their products, when they treat their paying customers like criminals.

So figgin true.

Zelda_fan
07-17-05, 12:24 AM
Whats ironc is, the RIAA and MPAA wonder why people dont want their products, when they treat their paying customers like criminals.

Right now it's not that bad. DVD's pretty much work problem free, and so do CDs. Apple also had an excellent music download service. However, this Microsoft Digital rights management stuff really ticks me off. It is annoying and stupid, and the future for DRM dosen't look good.