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Zurble
07-17-05, 07:09 AM
what chance that they'll become hardcore competitive games in that case?
as a Q3 hardcore gamer (still in action) i don't see QW become the next quake3 as Todd from id would make me believe in...
Also as what i saw it is much another BF game then anything of the Q series

or did i miss something ?

Intel17
07-17-05, 09:45 AM
what chance that they'll become hardcore competitive games in that case?
as a Q3 hardcore gamer (still in action) i don't see QW become the next quake3 as Todd from id would make me believe in...
Also as what i saw it is much another BF game then anything of the Q series

or did i miss something ?

What are you talking about? I doubt framerate will have a significant impact on whether the game is accepted and played frequently.

Also, none of us have pre-release copies of the game and can't predict the future, so it's unbeknownst to us whether it will be the "next Quake 3".

Zurble
07-17-05, 09:50 AM
What are you talking about? I doubt framerate will have a significant impact on whether the game is accepted and played frequently.

Also, none of us have pre-release copies of the game and can't predict the future, so it's unbeknownst to us whether it will be the "next Quake 3".

i never talked about it being accepted and/or played frequently, i am prety sure BF2 will be accepted and played frequently althought it has nothing to do with the quake series.

my point is that the next quakes will have nothing to do with the quake series too...
my second point is that 60 fps cap is enought to tell it will not be the next q3

Intel17
07-17-05, 09:54 AM
i never talked about it being accepted and/or played frequently, i am prety sure BF2 will be accepted and played frequently althought it has nothing to do with the quake series.

my point is that the next quakes will have nothing to do with the quake series too...
my second point is that 60 fps cap is enought to tell it will not be the next q3

I apologize, I misinterpreted "The Next Quake 3" as meaning a popular game, rather than a game following in the same style.

Also, you can have a hardcore competitive game, without it being like Quake 3, that's another reason why I didn't respond correctly.

Finally, how does a framerate cap, hardcoded into the engine, determine what the game will be like?

Zurble
07-17-05, 10:04 AM
it doesn't determine what the game will be, but what it will not be.
Quake games are fast and precise, fluid moves, speedy....
doom3 is not fluid (try to do some 180 or 360 in doom3 multiplayer), but quake wars could correct this.
doom3 is capped at 60 fps, that makes it not fast enought:
either movements amplitude will be capped too (perhaps that is the feeling of doom3 multiplayer) or the movement will be choppy (a 360 done in a third of seconds at 60 fps make you move from frame to frame at angle of 18 degrees wich means objects will move from center of screen to borders without transistion), that's the whole discussion about the eye seing more then 30 fps (for me it s more arround 120 for games)

edit: so my point is 60 fps is enought for BF2, not for quake

jolle
07-17-05, 10:35 AM
what chance that they'll become hardcore competitive games in that case?
as a Q3 hardcore gamer (still in action) i don't see QW become the next quake3 as Todd from id would make me believe in...
Also as what i saw it is much another BF game then anything of the Q series

or did i miss something ?

the Ticrate lock is mainly aimed at multiplayer..
So that everyone will be treated equally.. enginewise that is..
if the Physics engine is working at a much higher rate, it behaves differently, with Q3 for example you could do things @400fps that you cant at 80..

Zurble
07-17-05, 10:47 AM
what i worry is not to be able to do the 120 fps tricks in q3 or not, the needs of it depends on map design only.
i would also miss the bunny hoping which use another miscalculation behaviour....

what i worry about is to loose the speed/precision which lies mostly on the input engine and the fluidity possible with high FPS.

most hardcore gamers with low budget when q3 was out lowered details to the simplest form just to get the fps juice high enought (and it was not to keep a minimumu frame rate in heavy fights, but really to get high fps)

jolle
07-17-05, 10:53 AM
most hardcore gamers with low budget when q3 was out lowered details to the simplest form just to get the fps juice high enought (and it was not to keep a minimumu frame rate in heavy fights, but really to get high fps)

Thats so sad, I dont even know where to begin.
And prolly part of the reason for a locked tickrate..
Otherwise you got these few people playing the game looking like quake1 and getting unfair advantages due to that..

Zurble
07-17-05, 10:59 AM
Thats so sad, I dont even know where to begin.
And prolly part of the reason for a locked tickrate..
Otherwise you got these few people playing the game looking like quake1 and getting unfair advantages due to that..

i think u missinterpret the goal of this, i am not talking about thoose who changed settings for taking advantage of the simple models or engine tricks....most where doing this to be able to play the game like it should (at high fps for high precision/fast gaming)

most of these players like me upped the settings as soon as the hardware was able to cope with it.

unfortunatly when u set the limit in the engine (60 fps) u can't play anymore fast and precise games with high end computers or with low settings

Edge
07-17-05, 11:45 AM
I find it funny that you think 60FPS isn't good enough for an online game like Quake when internet latency adds a 1/50th to 1/10th of a second response time onto all your actions anyway. If you're getting 30ms ping, that would add the equivalent of 2 frames of latency to the game when you're playing at 60FPS.

And seriously...complaining about "only" getting 60FPS is possibly one of the most rediculous complaints I've ever heard. How in the world would getting 80 or 100 FPS make you play better than if you're at 60FPS? When you get to a certain point, the extra frames are pretty much wasted. Not to mention I doubt any computer could even RUN a Doom 3 engine game consistantly at above 60FPS. Consistancy is far more important than your "max framerate" would be, I'd rather play a game at 40FPS than play one that fluctuates between 30FPS and 80FPS. If 60FPS isn't precise enough for you, I suggest you stop playing games altogether, because you'll just be playing one disapointment after another.

Superfly
07-17-05, 12:13 PM
^^ here here.

Zurble
07-17-05, 12:14 PM
I find it funny that you think 60FPS isn't good enough for an online game like Quake when internet latency adds a 1/50th to 1/10th of a second response time onto all your actions anyway. If you're getting 30ms ping, that would add the equivalent of 2 frames of latency to the game when you're playing at 60FPS.

And seriously...complaining about "only" getting 60FPS is possibly one of the most rediculous complaints I've ever heard. How in the world would getting 80 or 100 FPS make you play better than if you're at 60FPS? When you get to a certain point, the extra frames are pretty much wasted. Not to mention I doubt any computer could even RUN a Doom 3 engine game consistantly at above 60FPS. Consistancy is far more important than your "max framerate" would be, I'd rather play a game at 40FPS than play one that fluctuates between 30FPS and 80FPS. If 60FPS isn't precise enough for you, I suggest you stop playing games altogether, because you'll just be playing one disapointment after another.

first you are mixing a lot of things here, there is a difference between latency shifting and fast/fluid gaming
putting your network rate at 60 or having a 30 ms latency has nothing to do with the way your computer and your game render things or get input from you.

having a latency of 200 or 300 ms doesn't prevent you from playing fast with fast moves, it only anoys you in a prediction scheme.

secondly, frames above 60 fps are not waste, you obviously never played quake or you are misleaded on the 30 fps myth about your eyes. if you still have quake installed, try it by yourself, use vsync and r_displayrefresh first at 100 or 120 then at 60....it is not only a question of fps, u ll see

third, yes my computer can run doom3 above 60 fps, but the point is not here, quake3 was an hog when out don't you remember?

edit: and for information, consistant frame rates and high frame rates are highly related, because the only way to get a consistant frame rate in any game is to have your frame rate above your monitor frequency.

Gabrobot
07-17-05, 01:27 PM
I don't think you need to worry about Quake 4 MP...it's being done Q3 MP style, and they apparently worked very hard to exactly replicate the movement physics.

Zurble
07-17-05, 01:32 PM
I don't think you need to worry about Quake 4 MP...it's being done Q3 MP style, and they apparently worked very hard to exactly replicate the movement physics.

sounds like good news to me :)

j0j081
07-17-05, 08:52 PM
So you guys are saying they capped the fps to make it fair for competition? I never knew play was different between 60 fps and say 120.

Gabrobot
07-18-05, 01:50 AM
So you guys are saying they capped the fps to make it fair for competition? I never knew play was different between 60 fps and say 120.

The physics go funky at certain framerates over 60 fps (and since any frames more than 60 per second are duplicate there's no visual difference...you still only see 60 unique frames per second. Faster refresh rates are of course noticeable, but that's something different).

brady
07-18-05, 06:01 AM
(popcorn)

Zurble
07-18-05, 06:55 AM
The physics go funky at certain framerates over 60 fps (and since any frames more than 60 per second are duplicate there's no visual difference...you still only see 60 unique frames per second. Faster refresh rates are of course noticeable, but that's something different).

they capped for competition but it may kill competition, it's like capping Motorsport engines in formula 1 so average Joe can enter without being laminated by Shummacker. I doubt Shumacker would be happy, he ll never get the same feeling of fast and fluid....

another point is that by capping at 60 fps, u not only remove engine bugs (why not crrect them instead?) u remove also many movement abilities, and u remove fluidity.
As i already explained, a fast 180 or 360 at 60 fps is impossible with uncapped moves and visual confort:
either u get large angles between frames -> choppy feeling
either u get capped moves -> 180 and 360 are slow and unprecise

and last, refresh rates and FPS are different. I don't talk about refresh rate which many feel confortable only at 85+, or the fact that indeed when u play at high fps, u also play at high refresh rates and high ps2rates. i talk about Hardcore playing. It 's nearly a state of the mind by itself. When in a fight and with a lot of experience, your moves are instinctives, you play on reflexes, it is so fast that many noob don't realize what happenned in that quarter of second, i's.....quake
And this rely mostly on the fast, fluid and precise engine behind. How can you be precise if you have a choppy movement or random duplicate frames (which could be worst for instinctive playing). How can you be precise if your moves are slowed by the cap (if you set refresh rate/vsync in quake3, your moves are slowed a lot, and sensitivity doesn't compensate correctly)

I think that John Carmack didn't put that cap for Multiplayer tricks since these tricks Made Quake, and he clearly said Doom3 was not intented at all for multiplayer and multiplayer was added only because it was a big ask from the community. I realy doubt he rewrote is entire code to avoid engine tricks in multiplayer where multiplayer should not have been there or where he didn't expected his game to be the next Q3 online. Multiplayer was first limited to 4 players because of far more important factors then 120 fps tricks (unusable in the current maps BTW)

avirox
07-18-05, 08:29 AM
60fps not fluid? And I thought I was a framerate ***** hehe. I have a 6800GT and 60fps seems to be the average in most games i play (albeit they're usually pretty maxed out) and it is perfectly fine for running around, doing 180 degree turns, and bunnyhopping (I play quake@60fps). Though I will agree with those who say there's a noticable difference b/w 60fps and 100fps, there's no real difference in playability and if anyone challenges that we can always find out in e1m7 eh ;P Peace,

Zurble
07-18-05, 09:18 AM
60fps not fluid? And I thought I was a framerate ***** hehe. I have a 6800GT and 60fps seems to be the average in most games i play (albeit they're usually pretty maxed out) and it is perfectly fine for running around, doing 180 degree turns, and bunnyhopping (I play quake@60fps). Though I will agree with those who say there's a noticable difference b/w 60fps and 100fps, there's no real difference in playability and if anyone challenges that we can always find out in e1m7 eh ;P Peace,

sorry to say, but 60 fps is fluid for the average Joe (like 150 MPH is realy fast for average drivers and realy slow for Schummy), not for hardcore players, and as i said it is not only a question of frame rate, playability at high speeds also is affected. If you are an old age quake player, for exemple, u should remember about ps2rate and why it was used.

I am for exemple not a BF1942 player so i can be considered as average joe, and yes...60 fps is enought for me there, but this is a bad exemple since there is no point at doing 180 or fast moves in BF, so it can also be considered enought for fans.

edit: is there any quake player in this quake thread ?

avirox
07-18-05, 09:37 AM
I play quake TF usually but sometimes I dig in for oldsk00l DM, and yes I play it all at 60fps. Same with Half-life 2 (tho that's b/c my monitor's RR at 1280 is set to 60 :S). 0 playability killers there with HL2dm (and even that drops below 60fps sometimes) on my single 6800GT. Btw are you some sort of racecar fan (hit me if it's so obvious ;))? Peace,

Zurble
07-18-05, 09:47 AM
I play quake TF usually but sometimes I dig in for oldsk00l DM, and yes I play it all at 60fps. Same with Half-life 2 (tho that's b/c my monitor's RR at 1280 is set to 60 :S). 0 playability killers there with HL2dm (and even that drops below 60fps sometimes) on my single 6800GT. Btw are you some sort of racecar fan (hit me if it's so obvious ;))? Peace,

I don't watch F1 and i rarely play race sims sorry, race sims for which 30 fps is enought and guess why, because race sims don't use 180 or fast moves, frame transistion is rarely higher then a few degrees.

Now for the TF/DM part, indeed u can play fine at 60 fps because you don't play close combat most of the time like in a 1 on 1. but if you were realy into hardcore fight you would know what i mean. So i guess u play it time to time in a CS style, not realy in the quake style

edit: BTW, BF CS and HL2 are slow games, mostly planar with long/middle range shoot. For these i agree 60 FPS is enought. That's why i fear quake wars/4 becoming another BF2 game which has nothing to do with the quake series.

Superfly
07-18-05, 11:49 AM
Quake Wars will indeed be nothing like anything previously done in the series. (thanks God) Think RTCW MP with vehicles.

Q4 will be just what your looking for.

Zurble
07-18-05, 12:55 PM
Quake Wars will indeed be nothing like anything previously done in the series. (thanks God) Think RTCW MP with vehicles.

Q4 will be just what your looking for.

that's what annoy me. I remeber Todd talking about QW being Q3 successor....not Q4
i hope i am wrong

Gabrobot
07-18-05, 01:16 PM
they capped for competition but it may kill competition, it's like capping Motorsport engines in formula 1 so average Joe can enter without being laminated by Shummacker. I doubt Shumacker would be happy, he ll never get the same feeling of fast and fluid....

another point is that by capping at 60 fps, u not only remove engine bugs (why not crrect them instead?) u remove also many movement abilities, and u remove fluidity.
As i already explained, a fast 180 or 360 at 60 fps is impossible with uncapped moves and visual confort:
either u get large angles between frames -> choppy feeling
either u get capped moves -> 180 and 360 are slow and unprecise

and last, refresh rates and FPS are different. I don't talk about refresh rate which many feel confortable only at 85+, or the fact that indeed when u play at high fps, u also play at high refresh rates and high ps2rates. i talk about Hardcore playing. It 's nearly a state of the mind by itself. When in a fight and with a lot of experience, your moves are instinctives, you play on reflexes, it is so fast that many noob don't realize what happenned in that quarter of second, i's.....quake
And this rely mostly on the fast, fluid and precise engine behind. How can you be precise if you have a choppy movement or random duplicate frames (which could be worst for instinctive playing). How can you be precise if your moves are slowed by the cap (if you set refresh rate/vsync in quake3, your moves are slowed a lot, and sensitivity doesn't compensate correctly)

I think that John Carmack didn't put that cap for Multiplayer tricks since these tricks Made Quake, and he clearly said Doom3 was not intented at all for multiplayer and multiplayer was added only because it was a big ask from the community. I realy doubt he rewrote is entire code to avoid engine tricks in multiplayer where multiplayer should not have been there or where he didn't expected his game to be the next Q3 online. Multiplayer was first limited to 4 players because of far more important factors then 120 fps tricks (unusable in the current maps BTW)

I still don't think you understand my point...the game itself always runs at 60 Hz (and this applies to both Quake 3 and Doom 3), so no matter what framerate the renderer is going at you will only see 60 frames per second. Here's a quote right from Carmack:

"The game tic simulation, including player movement, runs at 60hz, so if it rendered any faster, it would just be rendering identical frames. A fixed tic rate removes issues like Quake 3 had, where some jumps could only be made at certain framerates. In Doom, the same player inputs will produce the same motions, no matter what the framerate is."

When he talks about only being able to do some jumps at certain framerates...he means being able to jump unusually high because your framerate is, say, 83 fps (and yes, I mean that exact framerate). These are things newbies could use to their advantage, and only because of framerate not skill. Basically a form of cheating really. Vsync has to do with the refresh rate and framerate and will limit things to keep them synced. It's not the same as the framerate cap...try turning the cap off in Doom 3 and see if it makes a difference. The difference in movement in Doom 3 compared to Quake III is simply the way it's programmed to behave, and as I said Raven has worked very hard to get Quake 3 physics precisely replicated in Quake 4 MP. I don't think you need to worry...the framerate cap isn't what’s causing the problems you're talking about.