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The Penetrator
07-19-05, 11:29 PM
Gentlemen,

I have a Gigabyte 6800 GT (Heatpipe version) and I'm having loads of shimmering with the 'new' flight sim "Falcon 4 Allied Force".

I've tried all the different combinations of drivers and AA/AF settings and it doesn't make much of a difference.

The game won't even run on 77.72's.

Do you have any suggestions before I sell the card and get a Radeon ?

Here is a vid of the problem :

Shimmer Shimmer Ya Video (Click Me) 11 MB (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gazwelch/shimmer.mpg)

Cheers,

TP :afro:

Darkoz
07-20-05, 03:13 AM
That looks more like a driver/game issue rather than the card itself.
Does it happen in any other games?

The Penetrator
07-20-05, 03:03 PM
It only happens playing that game.

I've played Doom 3 for a few minutes and that hasn't the same problems. I don't really play owt else other than FM 2005.

TP :afro:

Acid Rain
07-20-05, 03:37 PM
Hmm, definitely sounds like a game issue more than anything else. Is it patched, or can it be? Not familiar with that one. One thing I've noticed over the years is that flight sims outside of Microsoft are almost always buggy, sometimes extremely buggy, regardless of the hardware.

Even the excellent Lock On shipped with a heaping pile of bugs.

The Penetrator
07-20-05, 04:23 PM
Only people with Nvidia cards are reporting the problem.

No patches have been released yet. One is due at the end of July but there is no mention of a shimmer fix from the makers.

Radeons seem to be free of the problem.

Do Nvidia have shimmer problems in general ?

TP :afro:

gram_vaz
07-20-05, 04:28 PM
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=40829&highlight=lod+bias

The Penetrator
07-20-05, 05:14 PM
http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=40829&highlight=lod+bias

Cheers,

That improves it, but it's still shimmering.
Just not as much now.

TP :afro:

The Penetrator
07-20-05, 06:13 PM
I've managed to reduce the shimmering but it still exists and is far from perfect and not as good as FF3 for example.

Here is what I've done using a 6800GT:

67.02 Drivers (AF gets Black Screen of Death with 77.72 - Direct X associated problems)

Tick show advanced settings.

Antialiasing= 8xS
Anisotropic Filtering = Application Controlled
Image Settings = High Quality
Color Profile = Not Available
Vertical Sync = Off
Force Mipmaps = None
Conformant Texture Clamp = On
Extension Limit = Off
Trilinear optimization = Off
Anisotropic mip filter Optimization = Off
Anisotropic Sample Optimization = Off
Negative LOD Bias = Clamp

Colour Quality = Highest 32 bit
Resolution = 1600 x 1200
Refresh Rate = 85 Hertz


In AF "D:\Program Files\Lead Pursuit\Battlefield Operations\FalconAF.exe" -g3

Video Driver = Primary Display Driver
Video Mode = Direct 3D HAL
Resolution = 1600 x 1200 32 Bit
Landscape Texture = 5
Landscape Detail = 11
Object Detail = 7
Special Effects = 5
Anisotropic Filtering = Green
Texture Quality = Ultra Only 32 Bit Textures
Canopy Cues = Lift Line


Whilst this is an improvement over the 'Shimmer Shimmer Ya Video', it is far from perfect.

Using 8xS creates a line on the Block 40 HUD (Aeyes is aware) and the Mouse cursor in the ****pit plays up.

I hope it can be properly fixed and the LP team can either confirm or deny there is a problem and it will/won't be fixed.

TP :thumbs: :afro:



Associated Shimmer Links:

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=91187

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=90970&highlight=shimmer

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=90525&highlight=shimmer

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/showthread.php?t=90479&highlight=shimmer

http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=656436#post656436

Vapor Trail
07-20-05, 06:18 PM
Don't dump the card because of one game, especially F4 AF.

F4 AF is much more stable than the original F4 ever was but that isn't saying much. The game is littered with numerous bugs (Even 4xAA doesn't work)and the graphic engine is very dated despite what the cover of the box says about how much it was improved.

There are many people very upset that this new version of F4 isn't even up to par graphically with many of the add-on mods that were done for the original F4.

Try turning on 8xs AA and make sure LOD clamp in on in your settings. This will minimize the shimmering. Your mouse cursor will disappear on parts of the ****pit but it is better than no AA at all.

I really like this sim despite all of its flaws and look forward to a patch in the near future. Hopefully most of the bugs will be ironed out but don't expect any graphical updates to the game any time soon.

some good info here at the SimHQ web site forum

http://www.simhq.com/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=forum;f=140

also at Frugal's

http://forums.frugalsworld.com/vbb/forumdisplay.php?f=73

Kojiro
07-21-05, 03:24 AM
Turn on Vsync.

The Penetrator
07-21-05, 12:35 PM
Turn on Vsync.

That also helped.

Cheers.

TP :afro:

The Penetrator
07-21-05, 07:49 PM
77.76 has also helped.

Not sure Triple buffering helps though.

TP :afro:

awf
08-13-05, 01:21 PM
Gentlemen,

I have a Gigabyte 6800 GT (Heatpipe version) and I'm having loads of shimmering with the 'new' flight sim "Falcon 4 Allied Force".

I've tried all the different combinations of drivers and AA/AF settings and it doesn't make much of a difference.

The game won't even run on 77.72's.

Do you have any suggestions before I sell the card and get a Radeon ?

Here is a vid of the problem :

Shimmer Shimmer Ya Video (Click Me) 11 MB (http://homepage.ntlworld.com/gazwelch/shimmer.mpg)

Cheers,

TP :afro:

Same here with FS2004 and with addon scenery it's worse... the only thing that helps is AA at 4xs or 8xs to reduce but still there.... 77.72 drivers and AF at 16x with rivatuner... for the 4xs etc....
Hmmm....BF2 runs fine ;-)
Love the performance of the card Asus 6800GT V9999GT/TD 256MB ddr3 but
the shimmer in FS2004 is terrible without 4xs or 8xs same as your movie....
Curious about a driver fix from NVIDIA.... :rolleyes:

Nv40
08-13-05, 02:02 PM
It only happens playing that game.

I've played Doom 3 for a few minutes and that hasn't the same problems. I don't really play owt else other than FM 2005.

TP :afro:


The shimering issue in games is more a game developer issue than a hardware issue.. MAny ARtist arent very carefull with the use of sharp textures. the first time i saw shimmering was in my Geforce4 with battlefield the original game. but never happened in my other DX or OpenGl games.

IHV vendors like NVidia or ATI have techniques to reduce the shimmering but again is not an "optimization issue" more an poor job from the game developers in the use of their textures in their game..

i know this because i can very easily recreate the shimmering (shimmering from hell) in 3d software aplications in animations.. where is not the video card but the CPU who handle the graphics.. ANd Im very sure noone will ever blame the cpu for doing poor optimizations". every 3dsoftware have filterings and settings to fix the shimering softening the sharpness of the textures.. THis is very normal to happen in 3dgraphics with newbie artist. in 3d software there are filters for that. But the better way to fix the shimering is using diferent ART . in games AF and AA helps to reduce the shimering.

with FLight simulators can be more noticeable the shimering because of the long distance the eye can see in the surface . IF u are using Falcon.. most likely you are using a mega texture "enhanced graphics" mod. Many Artists have the weird idea that if it looks sharper and more shiny it looks better. shimering happen a lot in some mods but not in their original games. because again the source of the problem is from the Development /artistic side. IHV's place here is that they have workarounds to make less noticeable this.

Anyone can recreate shimmering in their games.. using their in game editor.. Just load a giant (black and white) checkered texture for a very Large flat floor surface and you will see the shimmering in all its glory. :)

Just

awf
08-13-05, 02:42 PM
The shimering issue in games is more a game developer issue than a hardware issue.. MAny ARtist arent very carefull with the use of sharp textures. the first time i saw shimmering was in my Geforce4 with battlefield the original game. but never happened in my other DX or OpenGl games.

IHV vendors like NVidia or ATI have techniques to reduce the shimmering but again is not an "optimization issue" more an poor job from the game developers in the use of their textures in their game..

i know this because i can very easily recreate the shimmering (shimmering from hell) in 3d software aplications in animations.. where is not the video card but the CPU who handle the graphics.. ANd Im very sure noone will ever blame the cpu for doing poor optimizations". every 3dsoftware have filterings and settings to fix the shimering softening the sharpness of the textures.. THis is very normal to happen in 3dgraphics with newbie artist. in 3d software there are filters for that. But the better way to fix the shimering is using diferent ART . in games AF and AA helps to reduce the shimering.

with FLight simulators can be more noticeable the shimering because of the long distance the eye can see in the surface . IF u are using Falcon.. most likely you are using a mega texture "enhanced graphics" mod. Many Artists have the weird idea that if it looks sharper and more shiny it looks better. shimering happen a lot in some mods but not in their original games. because again the source of the problem is from the Development /artistic side. IHV's place here is that they have workarounds to make less noticeable this.


It was a lot less on my ATI 9800Pro indeed the different filters can do some to a certain degree.... ;)
FS2004 has the shimmer issue but it's with the brand new 6800GT a lot worse then on the ATI 9800Pro tried different settings of AA and AF including tweaks from NVIDIA (the only setting that works is 4xs AA 16AF) etc... but it still is there also (since I've got 3 PC in the home network one now with a ATI 9800Pro and one with a 6600GT... tested also the 6600GT same result as with the 6800GT....
So I think that the driver can contribute a lot here to reduce the shimmer...
As a IT guy i'm still surprised (I should have known better :() that the drivers have issues with those major games proper beta testing seems still difficult...
As for FS ATI seems to do a whole better job...
Installed via a new fresh setup and it's performing great only in FS the shimmer and thats why I bought the card in the first place :confused:

Nv40
08-14-05, 12:42 AM
It was a lot less on my ATI 9800Pro indeed the different filters can do some to a certain degree.... ;)
FS2004 has the shimmer issue but it's with the brand new 6800GT a lot worse then on the ATI 9800Pro tried different settings of AA and AF including tweaks from NVIDIA (the only setting that works is 4xs AA 16AF) etc... but it still is there also (since I've got 3 PC in the home network one now with a ATI 9800Pro and one with a 6600GT... tested also the 6600GT same result as with the 6800GT....
So I think that the driver can contribute a lot here to reduce the shimmer...
As a IT guy i'm still surprised (I should have known better :() that the drivers have issues with those major games proper beta testing seems still difficult...
As for FS ATI seems to do a whole better job...
Installed via a new fresh setup and it's performing great only in FS the shimmer and thats why I bought the card in the first place :confused:

Then if your experience is a lot better with your Radeon9800pro.. then stay with that. personally i have seen the shimering too, but is minimal not big deal for me. for me is a lot worse to stay using outdated hardware that have zero options to play your favorite games with the latest visual effects on. :)

particleman
08-14-05, 01:04 AM
It is more than just one game, but ever since nVidia implemented the negative LOD texture clamp, the games that can't be fixed by it are few and far between and it doesn't bug me nearly as much as it used to and I can live with it. But I can understand how those that have games that are affected might be a bit peeved. Anyways with all the power and some to spare on these current generation of video cards, I am actually wishing that nVidia would bring back the old 100% zero optimization, non angle dependant AF of the GF4 days.

ChrisRay
08-14-05, 02:10 AM
It is more than just one game, but ever since nVidia implemented the negative LOD texture clamp, the games that can't be fixed by it are few and far between and it doesn't bug me nearly as much as it used to and I can live with it. But I can understand how those that have games that are affected might be a bit peeved. Anyways with all the power and some to spare on these current generation of video cards, I am actually wishing that nVidia would bring back the old 100% zero optimization, non angle dependant AF of the GF4 days.


We can dream cant we? :thumbdwn:

awf
08-17-05, 12:49 PM
Then if your experience is a lot better with your Radeon9800pro.. then stay with that. personally i have seen the shimering too, but is minimal not big deal for me. for me is a lot worse to stay using outdated hardware that have zero options to play your favorite games with the latest visual effects on. :)

Try FS2004 :thumbdwn:

MikeC
08-17-05, 11:00 PM
Brian Burke from NVIDIA asked us to pass this bit of information along...

"We have isolated the problem and we are working on the fix. We will also be working on a fix for the application profile problems that some users were experiencing. We hope to have a fix soon."

Knacki99
08-18-05, 11:28 AM
How long do we have to wait for the fix?

Driver teams are on Release 85 drivers already...

SH64
08-18-05, 11:51 AM
Brian Burke from NVIDIA asked us to pass this bit of information along...

"We have isolated the problem and we are working on the fix. We will also be working on a fix for the application profile problems that some users were experiencing. We hope to have a fix soon."

That + the app profiles bug comment are good to hear :thumbsup: .. hope it dosent take long though.

JimBobb
08-18-05, 12:04 PM
Shimmering Videos from me with Battlefield 2 with HighQuality and Opt. off

Forceware 70.41 (G70 Modded)
http://rapidshare.de/files/4115832/bf2_7041.avi.html

Forceware 77.77
http://rapidshare.de/files/4115770/bf2_7777.avi.html

I hope Nvidia will fix this in later Drivers, that "Shimmering" is not accetable for HighQuality in the Drivers. :thumbdwn:

awf
08-18-05, 12:08 PM
Brian Burke from NVIDIA asked us to pass this bit of information along...

"We have isolated the problem and we are working on the fix. We will also be working on a fix for the application profile problems that some users were experiencing. We hope to have a fix soon."

Good to hear... :)

Was about to aband all NVIDIA stuff....
Will wait but when is soon :confused:

Z3r0-
08-18-05, 12:16 PM
well, i thought u guys had solved my bug, but alas it doesn't appear so

I will explain, I have an MSI 6600GT
Every time I play BF2 I get screen corruption, it's lots of blocks all over my screen in rows and columns equally seperated and I can see the game inbetween them.
Initially I was running BF2 with medium settings, I checked the temps and the card was at 75 degrees celsius, The case was at around 55 and the throttle threshold was on 127.
I then lowered the settings to Low ingame and turned texture filtering to low. I also ended up having to turn AA/AF off in the NVIDIA drivers.
My game time went up from 5 minutes to 30 before corruption.

MY last solution was to underclock it from 500/1000 to 200/400 it seems to run fine (and with the same or comparable FPS from observation) without overheating (my case was open in all tests).

So, anyone else had this problem or just me? I checked my fan on the card and it's working, I used ATItool to check the card for fragmenting and it works fine as long as all the above are done.

Assistance reqd :( I don't think I need a new fan / heatsink and I can't afford to rip it off as I'd have to buy new lugs or whatever they are, meaning a whole new fan/heatsink

I should mention something interesting here: one time I ran the card with ATItool and it went to 100degrees but there were no fragments? so that totally bamboozled me.

Another thing is Counter-Strike doesn't cause this, but if I let the card cool and run CS I still have corruption and I am required to turn the PC off and then back on.

and if any NVIDIA guys are reading this please can you make it so we can change the throttle temp, i'd like something a bit like AMD athlon 64 cool n quiet \o/ with several states the GPU can rest in.