Vanguard: Saga of Heroes

[ruziel]

http://www.vanguardsoh.com/

Developed by Brad McQuaid and Jeff Butler of Verant Interactive, the creators of Everquest, Everquest: The Ruins of Kunark and Everquest: The Scars of Velious. I have been following this game for a long time now and I'm surprised I haven't seen any threads mentioning this game. Read the entire FAQ, you won't regret it.

[Sgt_Pitt]

wow, this looks very promising :)

[|MaguS|]

Yeah I had a nice talk with Brad at E3. This is a game Im waiting for. ;)

[nrdstrm]

Yep, I'm waiting on this and DDO...DDO is alot closer to completion, but I'm really wanting to try Vanguard. I wish they wouldn't have had Vanguard running at E3 though. Framerate was horrible, graphics were unfinished, and they had a server problem and couldnt show us the game being played with other people (when I was at thier booth anyway). I would have prefered if they would have just shown a movie, and had it running alot better at next years E3...
Rob

[Sorrow]

word around the street is this is going to be an Xbox360 MMO also :D

Let's hope so

[ChrisRay]

I dont trust Brad MCquaid as far as I can throw him. When and if he released a well balanced MMORPG. Then I will be enthusiastic about his game and will praise him for it. Until then. I am very dubious of his ability to design a good game without flawed game mechanics. Lets hope he doesnt screw it the game like he screwed up Everquest balance wise. "The Vision" hurt EQ more than anything.

[Tygerwoody]

Brad McQuaid is my hero. I remember when I was playing in the first few months of Everquest being released, and i got a GM event Unique item from McQuaid. I was the only person to have it. They never even released it on other servers to my knowledge.

[Elderblaze]

Hehe say what you like about Brads "Vision" But at least EQ had one, more then I can say for many modern games.

[ChrisRay]

Yup. The Vision all but cost the game any hopes of class balance and destroyed the games combat system to never be repaired. But we can sure be thankful for that. Half of EQ 1's current problems still resolve around verants poor implementation of combat and game dynamics.

[lognoronon]

The vision was not good for the game plain and simple. I don't trust brad at all although I would like to be proven wrong. A lot of the pople thinking it was sooo good back then are running into the nostalgia factor. The game really was better off without the vision and as chris said it screws with it to this very day.

[|MaguS|]

I played up untill alittle after Planes of Power Expansion and can say that the best times I had with EQ1 were pre luclin. Sure it had its problems but it was fun, both the high end and the middle game... There were always areas with people in them, never had any big empty zones.

[Elderblaze]

When he says "pre luclin" he means "Vision Era" and you can harp all you want on EQ 1's combat system but lets face it, it was the FIRST(3D MMO) game of it's kind, they had nothing to go on so i think they did pretty damn well. And all modern games follow the same basic concepts just modified slightly. These people pioneered the genre, good to see they are so well respected :rolleyes: What your doing is paramount to bitching about Doom1's combat.

[ChrisRay]

Eh? I like Doom1's gameplay. Better examples please! And no. Brad MCquaid may have had the first MMORPG. It was quickly surpassed in playability by just about any game that was released in the next year or so. Anarchy Online and Dark Ages of Camelot.

I am harping on the fact that they knew there combat system was busted. They knew class balance was busted. And they did nothing to fix it. It wasnt until SoE came along and rebuilt the combat system and redesigning it. You can praise alot of things about EQ 1's combat system being unique. But half the things in EQ 1 combat system were unintentional.

Complete Heal: Completely broken spell that should have been removed early. The game was forever doomed to balance around this spell

Kiting: Verant took several steps to nerf kiting. Sony reimplemented them!

Feign Death Pulling: Verant took several steps to nerf this. Sony reimplemented it and improved monks for pulling!

Pacify/Harmony: Useless spell. Due to the spell having a broken MR modifiar. Fixed by sony!

Broken Charm system: Enchanters soloing in just about any place they can root/park remind you of anything? In the end the RVW was completely out of line.

Bards Charm/Snare/AOE Kiting: Broken forever. Fixed by Sony!

The list goes on and on and on. EQ 1 was a very poorly balanced game at the beginning and the content was very unfriendly towards the average users. And no. I have no respect for Brad MCquaid. Not in the least. The guy is very charismatic. But he hasnt proved to me he can design a well balanced game and playable game. When he does. I'll be the first to pat him on the back.

[|MaguS|]

Actually Most of what has been broken/fixed has been broken and fixed after every expansion... every since Kunark. Heck, I liked when FD worked great then SOE made it so it would fail more often and harder to pull using it.

Kiting shouldn't be allowed, Seeing a Druid or Bard take on 5+ mobs with ease was just stupid. As for CH, yeah it was a goof of a spell to add, once I recieved that spell I had a single job...

I think Verant had a good goal/vision... just a poor time implementing it.

[ChrisRay]

FD was nerfed long long before Kunark. ((Level restriction 35 for memory whipe. Used to whipe memory completely. Was done to stop plane of hate monk pulling)) Kiting was nerfed long before kunark. Pacify was broken long before Kunark. And your right. Verant had a good idea. But their implementation was at best very shoddy. Even sony has followed EQ 1's philosophy regarding kiting, fd, pulling ect,. Effectively killing it. The problem was. EQ 1 tactics became reliant on tactics that were broken in implementation. Thus players had no choice but to play these ways. And such the game had to be balanced around them in the end.

[|MaguS|]

And yet with all the problems it was probably one the most fun MMORPGs even compared to today's great MMORPGs. Heck, I had more fun with it then I did with my time in any other MMORPG... not even DOAC kept me for 4+ years and I couldn't see EQ2 or WoW doing so either...

[ChrisRay]

I think you should give newer MMORPGs more of a chance. EQ 1 was successful because for the first year and half. It had no competition. And when competition did arrive. It was a buggy disaster (Anarchy Online/DaoC from the beginning)) People had no real choices back then. Ever notice how people always quit EQ 1 pissed off back then? There were alot of people unhappy with the way Verant ran things. EQ 1 had a tendecy to keep you involved by continous expansion updates ((every 6 months)) and I predict ((at least SOE)) will continue that trend. Not entirely sure about Blizzard.

[|MaguS|]

To be able to survive to this point means something and shows that something was done right. The game is still going strong even with WoW and EQ2 out. Sure it doesn't have the population it use to but it has more then enough for raids to be common and SOE to continue releasing an expansion pack every 6 months.

EQ1 lasted and beat AO, DAOC (Actually had a great launch),COH, AC, AC2 (Great launch aswell), UO, Horizons, EO, E&B and even SWG. EQ1 was horrible at launch, the servers were unstable or down, The game had tons of lag aswell when you could get in. Heck EQ1 also suffered from just a poor engine rendering at launch, I remember all the graphics errors that popped up (this trend followed even through all the expansions).

[ChrisRay]

Magus. I am curious. Do you attone EQ 1's survival to Verant or Sony Online Entertainment?

[|MaguS|]

Verants mainly, Sure they screwed up alot initially but later after released they fixed alot of issues through patches and both Kunark and Velious were amazing expansions far better then any post luclin. Yeah, they did create some balancing issues from the getgo but every MMORPG suffers such issues so I couldn't be so harsh.

I also look at it this way, I had far more fun pre luclin then I did post luclin...

[ChrisRay]

But you were just aluding to the fact that the game was "more" fun. And lasted along time. Sony was the one who kept the game alive. Not Verant. And I bet people would be surprised to know Brad Mcquaid oversaw most of Luclin's development. And Sony was the one who rebalanced the game and made it more playable in the "long term".

EQ 1 has survived as long as it has because the game caters towards being high level. It wasnt until Luclin/Planes of Power were released did this "really" happen. They kept players there. EQ 1 did not recieve a substancial amount of new players for a long time after the release of MMORPGs such as DAoC and AO and newer MMORPGs.

The reason for this is simple. EQ 1 offers very very little to a new player. While they may have improved the game for newbies. Its still a poor game to play at lower levels. ((Actually Sony did the newbie improvements too))

[ruziel]

eq1 is now like people's little brother.. it's taken enough ****, just leave it alone :P

[Elderblaze]

Don't forget they are all MMO's. EQ1 offers the same **** as any other MMO to a new player, Community, and hours upon hours of grinding. No matter how you wrap it, they are all the same. Most of the stuff you qouted a few post back when you where tearing Verant up, are all forgiveable newbie mistakes. Like I said it was the very first 3D MMO of it's time. To expect it to be anywhere near todays' games in Balence/mechanics is a bit foolish. Do you understand the depth of wha those DEV's where doing so many years ago, They dident know EQ1 was gonna be a breakaway sucess, they dident think people would chew through the content so rapidly. They did not plan for the game to last for years, that's why things like Complete Healing made it in, if they knew the game was going to last 2 years, let alone 7, I gurantee you it would have not been put in. Oddly enough CH is pretty well balenced these days as it heals 7500 only. Which is becoming less and less. Plus with it's 10 second cast time it's not even used that much anymore.

I don't pretend to know why EQ's still around today and so many other games with superior game mechanics have fallen to the wayside, some, overnite. I know in order for it to have lasted so long and carved it's way into so many people's hearts that eq sure as hell did somthing right. Somthing that so many others could only hope for, im not even sure Brad himself knows.

It's a crying shame SOE ruined the franchise with EQ2, damn shame. Vanguard is the real EQ2. I will be laughing my ass off when EQ1 servers are still going strong when EQ2 is shut down.

Anywho,

/end sentimental rant.

[ChrisRay]

EQ 2 isnt going anywhere elder. We know you dont like EQ 2. But Could you try to be a little more realistic please? Like how about coming back down to planet earth for once. EQ1/EQ2 have similar market shares.


No matter how you wrap it, they are all the same. Most of the stuff you qouted a few post back when you where tearing Verant up, are all forgiveable newbie mistakes. Like I said it was the very first 3D MMO of it's time. To expect it to be anywhere near todays' games in Balence/mechanics is a bit foolish.

No. I expected Verant to improve the system when it was obviusly broke. There were games out there during the EQ 1 era way before EQ2 and WoW that had far better balance than EQ Live. Again. When Brad Mcquaid proves he is capable of designing a balanced MMORPG. Instead of closing his ears to the community about the game problems go "La la la I cant hear you. The vision is clogging my ear drums". Until then. He will get the criticism I feel he so rightly deserves. Oh and Abashi too.

They did not plan for the game to last for years, that's why things like Complete Healing made it in, if they knew the game was going to last 2 years, let alone 7, I gurantee you it would have not been put in. Oddly enough CH is pretty well balenced these days as it heals 7500 only. Which is becoming less and less. Plus with it's 10 second cast time it's not even used that much anymore.


CH isnt anymore balanced now than it was then. The game designed almost every encounter around complete heal. How can you even sit there with a straight face and say Complete Heal is balanced. It only took 3 years and serious nerfs from SOE to bring that heal back down to lower levels. . Its mana inexpensive and heals too well. The only difference is other classes have been starting to get comparative spells and since EQ 1 is so old now. Spells are starting to catch up with complete heal in potency. But not mana effiency.

MMORPGs are designed to have significant lifespans. So thats no excuse for poor design. Everquest Live was designed looking forward too. Like I said before. I could go on forever about poor design mechanics. I have played the game for 7 years. I have a pretty good idea of the flaws in the game.

[|MaguS|]

No one knew how well the MMORPG crave would take off, especially Verant. Heck most people thought Verant were crazy for requiring 3D Acceleration.

EQ1 is flawed but so is EVERY MMORPG out there, I know that CH was unbalanced and forced every encounter to be created around it... trust me as a End Game Cleric... I know...

Even if looking at the walls and being in a CH rotation, I still had more fun in EQ1 then EQ2 and WoW together... Not even L2 which is my main MMORPG currently is drawing me in like EQ1 did.

The game had flaws but it had the staying power and the draw to keep people for so long, this is whats lacking in about all current MMORPGs.