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SH64
08-09-05, 12:59 AM
I guess we have a bad news for all the OpenGL programmers/users & especially the game companies thats still using graphics engines based on it like id software :thumbdwn:

THE OPENGL Foundation claims that the software giant, Microsoft is trying to shaft its free specification with the introduction of its super soar-away version of its Windows operating system Vista.
The foundation has issued a call to arms here, over Vole’s plan to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in Vista.
it seems that at the heart of the problem is the fact that Vista’s new interface and driver model uses DirectX in a slightly new way. These changes have had a knock on effect with other 3d graphics APIs.
According to the Foundation this means that if you use Vista, OpenGL performance will be slashed by half, limited and there would be no extensions will be possible to cope with future hardware innovations. The foundation does not have a clue why Vole is doing this.

http://theinquirer.net/?article=25215

do you think Windows Vista will mark the end of the OpenGL API ??

OCForums_Osirus
08-09-05, 01:19 AM
Im not sure on how this is going to play out, it will be interested none the less. Micorsoft is trying to get everyone on the same page with there new OS. They did the same thing with the xbox360. They made it standard HD. Which sucks for people like me, who can't afford more then 1 HD tv... :thumbdwn:

Q
08-09-05, 02:02 AM
It will more than likely be the nail in the coffin for OpenGl, in my opinion. And with that the limited game support on OSX and Linux, since the few GL ports would be absent. Windows would be the only PC OS with gaming. Smart move for MS, and honestly there aren't THAT many games that use OpenGl, and few that use it impressively. Doom3, I know, but the majority of games use DX and most will continue to. From time to time you see a few small companies put out killer games using GL, like Gish, but take away the lighting in that game and you could likely code it in Java.

It will be sad seeing it go, but in a way it just doesn't seem like its going to be that big of a deal. You've got one main engine on it...thats it. If there are more games/engines that use GL let me know! I just don't see what the big deal is. Is Quake 4 going to be THAT good? ;D

SH64
08-09-05, 02:49 AM
It will be sad seeing it go, but in a way it just doesn't seem like its going to be that big of a deal. You've got one main engine on it...thats it. If there are more games/engines that use GL let me know! I just don't see what the big deal is. Is Quake 4 going to be THAT good? ;D

The idea is not just that theres one engine using it , but rather the idea of more APIs to choose from for the programmer.
i know there arent much interested in it , but at least dont kill it! .. someone else might come later & take a good advantage of it for future game titles. you'd never know!

oh & for future games thats going to use the D3 engine theres more than Quake4 .. you have Prey (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=54676) & ET:Quake Wars (http://www.nvnews.net/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=50838) . the latter might come on late 2006 which could be right ofter the release of Windows Vista which makes me wonder how its going to perform under the new OS.
heck even if there are more game companies planning on licensing it these news will make them reconsider thier decision.

myshkinbob
08-09-05, 02:52 AM
Forgetting games for a moment, OpenGL is the standard API for 3D software. CAD/DCC apps nearly always use it, and usually exclusively. Occasionally you get a choice of 3D API, like in 3dsmax though.

I'm curious as to how or why microsoft plan to shaft the design business community, because i don't see all 3d software magically shifting to D3D ready for vista, and i don't see businesses accepting a theoretical halving of their productivity until all the software does change API with windows.

Superfly
08-09-05, 12:41 PM
no competition for DX means no need for MS to add new features to DX which in tern means MS can CONTROL the way in which PC gaming technology evolves - for instance they can limit DX on the PC to the same level as the XBox 360 - thus ensuring PC graphics dont surpass its new console within 12 months and increasing the lifetime of the 360.

Not to mention the fact that DX is only good for games and has no implimentation for ANY professional package (because it simply cant do what OpenGL can).

SH64
08-09-05, 12:45 PM
no competition for DX means no need for MS to add new features to DX which in tern means MS can CONTROL the way in which PC gaming technology evolves - for instance they can limit DX on the PC to the same level as the XBox 360 - thus ensuring PC graphics dont surpass its new console within 12 months and increasing the lifetime of the 360.


Man just the thought of that idea scares me :eek:
its becoming very possible with MS having thier own share in the console market.

Superfly
08-09-05, 12:47 PM
here is a great quote from IEXBeta on the subject:

If this is true, it doesn't matter if you are a D3D fan or an OpenGL fan, we all lose. D3D is what it is today thanks to the 'competition' with OpenGL. If MS kills or limits OpenGL (it is more or less the same), they won't need to update D3D. It is like when they won the browser battle with Netscape. They didn't update IE for a long time (now with Firefox, it seems that there is movement again).

Without OpenGL, and IHV's exposing new functionality through it, there would be no sense in creating new features in HW as there is NO way to expose them through D3D. The feature set of the graphic cards will be those that MS will dictate. They don't need to update D3D (or WFG) for 5/6 years (we had TNT2s that time ago). They have no competition that forces them to do it. For example, MS can limit the features in the API to those that the XBOX 360 will have. With no API update, PC games can't be visually better than the console ones and they can make the XBOX 360 life longer.
Without OpenGL, MS will dictate how and when the PC 3D graphics will evolve (both HW and D3D API). This will affect everybody. D3D and OpenGL programmers, PC users, IHV, …

Superfly
08-09-05, 12:48 PM
Man just the thought of that idea scares me :eek:
its becoming very possible with MS having thier own share in the console market.

scares you?? - I bet JC is having a fook'in heart attack!!!!!!!

Superfly
08-09-05, 12:57 PM
you guys should go here - and read this: http://board.iexbeta.com/index.php?showtopic=57110

I started this post on IEX when I read the news on opengl.org - there is some exclusive info there.

Riptide
08-09-05, 01:08 PM
I'm not sure you guys are understanding this right. Then again maybe I don't. But check out this thread:
http://episteme.arstechnica.com/groupee/forums/a/tpc/f/48409524/m/238008574731

Here's a couple pertinent snippets:
n vista, three modes of OGL will eb supported.

Full screen OGL through a vendor ICD. This is exactly like XP today.

Windowed OGL though the DX wrapped vanilla 1.4 implementation. This is like using the 1.1 OGL implementation in XP as it shipped. Relatiely slow and relatively feature poor. It doesnt' change. But it is there. On vists, this mode can be used with DCE to provide a fully composited environment.

Windowsed OGL through a vendor ICD. This is the new case. In this case the compositing engine is diabled while any ICD-driven window is displayed, so you dont' get a composited desktop. In stead, you get a desktop like XP has today.
Of course, for applications that run full-screen (like games), it makes zero difference whether or not the composited desktop is disabled, because you don't see it anyway. Vista allows developers to use the DX-wrapped OGL 1.4 implementation when operating in windowed mode with somewhat reduced performance (while preserving the composited desktop), and the system's native OGL 2.x ICD when operating in full-screen mode for maximum performance and functionality.
"Limited" to the same user experience found in XP? If it's good enough for XP, why isn't it good enough for Vista? The simple fact is, Vista will provide better OpenGL support than any prior version of Windows.

Superfly
08-09-05, 03:59 PM
You got it just fine Riptide - whats being said is that in Vista OpenGL will be limited to the DX v1.4 wrapper when running windowed apps with Aeroglass enabled - when a full screen ICD is run (like a game) it should (hopefully) make no difference if aeroglass is enabled or not.

Your right though I think some peeps have misunderstood this.

Riptide
08-09-05, 06:26 PM
Right, so in a game the performance will be no different vs. XP. This only effects windowed apps, which ofcourse negates concern for most applications especially to us gamers. ;)

SH64
08-09-05, 07:17 PM
Well that sounds somewhat relaxing now .. we should keep our eyes opened in the meanwhile though.

Riptide
08-09-05, 07:51 PM
LOL

Some of you are so suspicious of MS. Granted some of that is warranted IMO... but damn it almost seems like borderline paranoia at times.

My initial reaction when I read this today, based mainly on the fact I don't design 3D games and hence don't know much about this, was fear that GL would be 1/2 the speed under Vista.

Only after reading around did I find out that it's true - but only under certain circumstances, and it's not going to effect games running fullscreen. Morale of the story I guess... don't jump to conclusions even if everyone else appears to be scared to death.

Q
08-09-05, 09:38 PM
So many good points made...

The monopoly of DX was a good point, as was all of the CAD softwares that I completely negleted. Thats what I get for posting when I'm tired! :D

Riptide again saves the day! Good find, indeed. I was wondering how MS was going to justify "killing" an API like that. Oh well....GL goodness will still be around for Vista.

Subtestube
08-10-05, 12:13 AM
I still worry a significant bit about windowed CAD apps - I mean.. you don't want to be running non-accelerated viewports in Maya. I realise you can have 'em at full power and just disable Aero Glass, but you just know that that context switch isn't going to be a tidy thing for the UI to do, and one of the really nice things (a properly responsive desktop) is going to be... not as nice whenever you're running your most intensive graphic design apps. I mean.. come on, that's still not at all cool.

Riptide
08-10-05, 12:22 AM
I mean.. come on, that's still not at all cool.
I agree it's lame. Maybe not as lame as I thought at first. But still lame.

Superfly
08-10-05, 01:52 AM
Right, so in a game the performance will be no different vs. XP. This only effects windowed apps, which ofcourse negates concern for most applications especially to us gamers. ;)

"should" be no different

lets hope.

npras42
08-10-05, 06:12 AM
I still worry a significant bit about windowed CAD apps - I mean.. you don't want to be running non-accelerated viewports in Maya. I realise you can have 'em at full power and just disable Aero Glass, but you just know that that context switch isn't going to be a tidy thing for the UI to do, and one of the really nice things (a properly responsive desktop) is going to be... not as nice whenever you're running your most intensive graphic design apps. I mean.. come on, that's still not at all cool.

Wasn't this an inevitable side-effect of having a DX rendered desktop though? I mean I'm no tecchie on this matter but if you have a desktop rendered with DX in the background and then try to run a windowed app in the foreground running OpenGL, wouldn't there be conflicting resources or anything?

I cant remember ever trying to run a DX app and a OpenGL app at the same time, but somehow I dont think it would work so well...

Subtestube
08-10-05, 05:29 PM
Wasn't this an inevitable side-effect of having a DX rendered desktop though? I mean I'm no tecchie on this matter but if you have a desktop rendered with DX in the background and then try to run a windowed app in the foreground running OpenGL, wouldn't there be conflicting resources or anything?

I cant remember ever trying to run a DX app and a OpenGL app at the same time, but somehow I dont think it would work so well...

Nah.. it really should be fine. The APIs both work through the drivers, so providing ATi and nVIDIA are doing their jobs right, there's no reason both can't have access to the framebuffer. Alternately, they could both have their own offscreen buffers, and just combine them at the final stage of the compositing pipeline. Some of the folks over at OpenGL.org have suggested that one fix might be just having the OGL API bypass the framebuffer entirely, render to a texture when Aero glass is running in windowed mode, and then just tell the Aero compositor to render that texture to the contents of the window using a DirectX call. I mean, that solution really should work fine. Believe me - both ATi and NV are heavily invested in OpenGL functioning correctly.

Actually - here's a screenshot of one of my monitors running an OpenGL demo and a DirectX one at the same time. They're both running and animating in real time. I'm not going to say it's as fast as it could be (Whichever app has focus has much better performance, but you'd expect that), but really, the Aero compositor should be fairly lightweight - consider that in that case, there are only 150 tris per window, and even with fragment shaded refraction (as the windows are supposed to do), you're really not rasterising that many pixels.

npras42
08-10-05, 07:49 PM
Nah.. it really should be fine. The APIs both work through the drivers, so providing ATi and nVIDIA are doing their jobs right, there's no reason both can't have access to the framebuffer. Alternately, they could both have their own offscreen buffers, and just combine them at the final stage of the compositing pipeline. Some of the folks over at OpenGL.org have suggested that one fix might be just having the OGL API bypass the framebuffer entirely, render to a texture when Aero glass is running in windowed mode, and then just tell the Aero compositor to render that texture to the contents of the window using a DirectX call. I mean, that solution really should work fine. Believe me - both ATi and NV are heavily invested in OpenGL functioning correctly.

Actually - here's a screenshot of one of my monitors running an OpenGL demo and a DirectX one at the same time. They're both running and animating in real time. I'm not going to say it's as fast as it could be (Whichever app has focus has much better performance, but you'd expect that), but really, the Aero compositor should be fairly lightweight - consider that in that case, there are only 150 tris per window, and even with fragment shaded refraction (as the windows are supposed to do), you're really not rasterising that many pixels.


Well, I'm glad that someone here knows what they are talking about. Thanks for the response! :)

Subtestube
08-21-05, 01:09 AM
Update from OpenGL.org. They've softened their position, but they still (reasonably I think) want a 'call to action'. If you're at all interested in CAD, it really might pay to write to your software provider regarding this:

"Microsoft's current plan for OpenGL on Windows Vista is to layer OpenGL over Direct3D in order to use OpenGL with a composited desktop to obtain the Aero experience. If an OpenGL ICD is run - the desktop compositor will switch off - significantly degrading the user experience.

It would be technically straightforward to provide an OpenGL ICD within the full Aero experience without compromising the stability or the security of the operating system. Layering OpenGL over Direct3D is a policy decision more than a technical decision.

Note: this is only a first beta of Vista, so this decision is not set in stone. Write to your preferred software developer (Alias, UGS, Autodesk, Softimage, Dassault Systemes, PTC, SolidWorks, Maxon, TGS, Lightwave, Multigen, etc.), hardware developer and video card manufacturer (e.g. 3Dlabs, ATI, Intel, Matrox, NVIDIA, SIS HP, Dell, Leenovo) and tell them to bring this up with Microsoft. This will be the most effective action you can take. Don't be passive - send those emails and keep the topic in the foreground"
- OpenGL.org

AthlonXP1800
08-21-05, 03:24 AM
Microsoft policy to weakens OpenGL wasnt a big deal, they did the same thing with Windows XP when they outlined the policy to included OpenGL 1.1 ICD driver with basic functions that will not compromising the security of the Windows XP operating system and it require new videocards drivers with full functional OpenGL ICD to ensure it met Microsoft policy by not compromising the security of the Windows XP operating system months before the launch of Windows XP in 2001. At that time, I had 3dfx Voodoo 5 5500 AGP, the 3dfx OpenGL ICD was outdated and no longer worked with Windows XP because it did not met Microsoft policy, it require to write a new driver to get around it but 3dfx was no longer around, it forced me to Nvidia with Geforce 4 Ti 4600, it had new OpenGL ICD 1.3 driver that had around Microsoft policy and it worked fine without compromising the security of OS.

When Windows Vista release, ATI and Nvidia will have new full functional OpenGL ICD drivers that will not compromising the security of Windows Vista and Aero interface. :)

Zerocool
08-24-05, 11:34 PM
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