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demonized
12-23-02, 09:02 AM
http://gamespot.com/gamespot/filters/products/0,11114,914444,00.html

thcdru2k
12-23-02, 10:46 AM
and he says it will match pc visuals. that will be quite a feet.

stncttr908
12-23-02, 11:32 AM
Yeah but it doesn't have to output them at such a high res either.

Gargr
12-24-02, 04:00 AM
Originally posted by thcdru2k
and he says it will match pc visuals. that will be quite a feet.

I dont have time to read whatever it is in the link
Did he say at what framerate? I dont think it will run very good on the Xbox, i guess 15-30 FPS

StealthHawk
12-24-02, 05:10 AM
Originally posted by Gargr
I dont have time to read whatever it is in the link
Did he say at what framerate? I dont think it will run very good on the Xbox, i guess 15-30 FPS

this is all the link says for me.

John Carmack confirms that the graphically impressive first-person shooter will come out for the Xbox and will match the visual feats of the PC version.

now don't you feel stupid, it would have been faster to click the link and read that than type your post :p

Mod
12-24-02, 08:21 AM
There should be away to optimise PC games a bit more...

Gargr
12-24-02, 09:45 AM
Originally posted by StealthHawk
this is all the link says for me.



now don't you feel stupid, it would have been faster to click the link and read that than type your post :p

It's gamespot, takes 5+ mins to open on a 33.6 dial-up
:D

Fusion
12-24-02, 02:08 PM
Xbox CPU = Celeron 733
XBox GPU = GF3 hybrid GPU at 200/200 (didn't they underclock it at the last minute ?)

64 Mb UNIFIED RAM, not even fast VRAM.

Average speed DVD drive, + slow 8gb HD.

Someone please explain how this is going to match up to people with AthlonXP, P4, GF4 Ti cards, GF FX, Radeon9700 ???

I don't think so.

John Carmack confirms that the graphically impressive first-person shooter will come out for the Xbox and will match the visual feats of the PC version.

Sh'yeah right. Joe average's PC with a Geforce 3 and a 1.4 ghz Athlon/Duron running at 640x480 with low detail.

Xbox is nice, and powerful for a console (compared to PS2/GC), but there's just some things it's won't be able to do THAT well.

The Baron
12-24-02, 02:18 PM
Wow, you really don't know the first thing about consoles, do you?

All consoles are the same, meaning you can optimize the hell out of it and it will be optimized everywhere. You don't have to worry about compatibility--everything's the same.

Now, PC, you have to worry about 50 different video cards, 1,000,000,000 different configurations, etc. al, and it isn't going to run as well given the hardware differences.

thcdru2k
12-24-02, 04:09 PM
yeah..even at 640x480..some of the better games for xbox and gc..they look amazing. splinter cell, mechassault, metroid prime, etc. and rallisport challenge is just sick

DaveW
12-24-02, 05:01 PM
Originally posted by =SSC=The Baron
Wow, you really don't know the first thing about consoles, do you?

All consoles are the same, meaning you can optimize the hell out of it and it will be optimized everywhere. You don't have to worry about compatibility--everything's the same.

Now, PC, you have to worry about 50 different video cards, 1,000,000,000 different configurations, etc. al, and it isn't going to run as well given the hardware differences.

True but Carmack isn't programming for thousands of different video cards. There is a standard GL render path, and optimized rendering paths for the NV2X, NV3X and Parahelia.

Its true that many PC games are unoptimized and the console version runs just as good with 1/2 the processing power. I doubt Doom 3 will be one of those badly coded unoptimized PC games though.

When Carmack says "will match the visual feats of the PC version" all he means is that it will have the same graphical effects: stencil shadows, specularity etc. The sentence doesn't imply anything about framerate. You can say that the Gameboy Advance version of Doom (1) "matches the visual feats of the PC version".

I expect the xbox version to get no more than 640x480 resolution in 30 fps. Thats all a console (built for TV gaming) can do anyway. It will likely have lower resolution textures, or smaller maps to squeeze it into that shared 64 meg the xbox has.

Gargr
12-24-02, 06:17 PM
I tried the DOOM III Alpha timedemo on my ****ty PC: Celeron 850@1133Mhz, 512MB PC133 RAM and GF4 ti4200 128Mb(300/550) @640x480x32

Timedemo:
31 FPS

Timedemo + S3TC(r_ext_compress_textures 1):
33.4 FPS

And the framerate drops to 10-12 FPS when i play. Thats with S3TC

I guess the final version will run lil better.

Fusion
12-24-02, 06:21 PM
Wow, you really don't know the first thing about consoles, do you?

I guess you should THINK before you post next time.

READ DaveW's post, at least he understands.

Unless you'd like to explain just HOW they are going to squeeze Doom3 onto an Xbox with just 64Mb ?

Doom3 WILL require fast VRAM, and lots of it.
The textures in Doom3 are huge hires textures that take up megabytes of space, and will need cards with 64Mb+ of VRAM to take full advantage of.

So, in a 64MB unified Xbox, SOMETHING will have to give.
So my guess is that the textures will have to be seriously reduced to fit, as well as a few other things that the Xbox can't handle like 128bit colour for a start.

SO Like I said before, it won't match the quality that most of us will be seeing. But I expect it to be about the same as a GF3 equipped 1.4 athlon, no more.

yeah..even at 640x480..some of the better games for xbox and gc..they look amazing. splinter cell, mechassault, metroid prime, etc. and rallisport challenge is just sick

I agree, but looks alone don't make a game. And many of the Xbox games just aren't upto scratch.
Splinter Cell is seriously flawed. Shoot a guard 3 times in the chest and he still gets up ? And why all the waiting, it just gets boring.
Mech Assualt has been seriously slated for missing some features from the PC version, like customising mechs.
Rally Sport Challenge's handling is terrible. Give me Colin Mcrae3 anytime.
Blinx is just dreadful, and certainly doesn't give you the 'Time' freedom you might like.
SegaGT2002 is terrible. Average GFX, poor gameplay.

Plus nearly ALL of the Xbox exclusives are now multiformat. So another reason not to own one.
I'll stick to my PS2, and my Gamecube.

Fusion
12-24-02, 06:34 PM
Splinter Cell is great IMO

It certainly looks great, even better on my PC at 1280x960 with 4x FSAA.
But I still think it has some serious flaws.
Perhaps Splinter Cell 2 will sort them out. :)

Gargr
12-24-02, 06:37 PM
lol, i deleted my post by accident
don't ask!
lol

StealthHawk
12-24-02, 09:43 PM
Originally posted by Fusion
So, in a 64MB unified Xbox, SOMETHING will have to give.
So my guess is that the textures will have to be seriously reduced to fit, as well as a few other things that the Xbox can't handle like 128bit colour for a start.

Doom 3 is not going to use 128bit color. hell, i doubt on a tv you need increased precision at all. it won't be anywhere nearly as noticeable as it would on a monitor.

tvs inherently blur everything, thus the need for high quality textures is not as great on a console as it is on a PC.

Carmack has already stated that he could optimize for a fixed platform and get +50% performance because of it.

Fusion
12-25-02, 07:00 AM
Doom 3 is not going to use 128bit color.

Where does it state that ?

Link ?

tvs inherently blur everything, thus the need for high quality textures is not as great on a console as it is on a PC.

Then it won't match the PC for quality, will it ? Just like I've always stated.

Carmack has already stated that he could optimize for a fixed platform and get +50% performance because of it.

50% over what ?
How do you get 50% over something ? What ? What platform ?

50% over a 2ghz+ Athlon XP + Radeon 9700 ?
50% over a 2ghz+ P4 + Gefroce 4/ FX ?

I seriously don't think so.
I think some of you seriously over estimate Xbox. :rolleyes:

ReDeeMeR
12-25-02, 08:18 AM
Well if bastard will optimize it to run on xbox and wont do same for PC the game is ghoing get warez'd for me, I mean comeon I laready have hardware that outpaces xbox 3 times and still going to probably upgrade before doom3 pffff fuking nonsense

StealthHawk
12-25-02, 07:29 PM
Originally posted by Fusion
Where does it state that ?

Link ?



Then it won't match the PC for quality, will it ? Just like I've always stated.



50% over what ?
How do you get 50% over something ? What ? What platform ?

50% over a 2ghz+ Athlon XP + Radeon 9700 ?
50% over a 2ghz+ P4 + Gefroce 4/ FX ?

I seriously don't think so.
I think some of you seriously over estimate Xbox. :rolleyes:

personally i don't see why you're putting the burden on me, bu i'll look anyway :rolleyes: how about you provide a link saying that Doom 3 will use 128-bit color?

what you don't see you won't miss. nough said.

50% over a fixed platform of equal power of course.

edit: so here are some links.

http://firingsquad.gamers.com/features/quakecon2002/page4.asp

Another point hammered home several times is that the Doom III engine is based on the feature spec laid out by the original NVIDIA GeForce ONE platform. These features include assumed use of 32 bit color, full stencil buffer support, etc, but does not include full use of the newest features in cards like the ATI Radeon 9700 Pro that he would include in the next engine. These newest features include a floating point pixel unit and generalized dynamic texture lookups. As such, Carmack was quick to point out that while Doom 3 does directed light sources better than any other engine, it's not as strong in representing ambient light sourcing, and thus, would not be ideally suited for representing outdoor levels.

Getting on his soapbox a bit, Carmack touched on the issue of upcoming support for 64 bit color in next-generation graphics cards.

no floating point support, which is increased precision. now let's look at his exact words, as those were just an interpretation.

http://www.tomshardware.com/business/20020817/quakecon-06.html

The question is, where do we go from here? The next logical step is to develop an engine that is designed exclusively around the technology that you will find in the new technology video cards such as the ATI Radeon 9700 and the Nvidia NV30, which has not been released yet. The sad part about this, of course, is that we might miss an intermediate step, but I think that is what is going to happen.

64 bit color is going to be important on any move forward.

these statements were made back in August at Quakecon 2002, so things may have changed. people keep insisting that they have, not just you. yet i haven't found any proof that states Doom 3 will be using new tech beyond what Carmack has said it will. i'll look for some console quotes later, i don't have time right now.

edit 2: ok, here's the reference for the console thing. i always though Carmack said +100%, but people here had quoted the +50%.

http://www.nvnews.net/cgi-bin/search.cgi?category=1&keyword=doom&page=3

The X-Box GPU is more of a GF4 than a GF3, but a modern PC is generally much higher end than an X-Box.

However, you can usually count on getting twice the performance out of an absolutely fixed platform if you put a little work into it. There are lots of tradeoffs that need to balance between the different cards on a general purpose platform -- things that I don't do with vertex programs because it would make the older cards even slower, avoiding special casing that would be too difficult to test across all platforms (and driver revs), and double buffering of vertex data to abstract across VAR and vertex objects, for instance. We might cut the "core tick" of Doom from 60hz to 30hz on X-Box if we need the extra performance, because it has no chance of holding 60hz, but the PC version will eventually scale to that with the faster CPUs and graphics cards.

The Baron
12-25-02, 09:42 PM
Wow. It always amazes me when people think that because a game comes out a few months after new hardware is released that game will take advantage of every feature that hardware offers.

DX8, ANYBODY?!

Personally, I want to see how Xbox Doom3 looks on a 52" plasma TV.... *drools* :p

thcdru2k
12-25-02, 10:53 PM
i'd be happy to see a 52in plasma

LORD-eX-Bu
12-25-02, 11:33 PM
I'd be happy to have a 52 inch plasma.

StealthHawk
12-26-02, 02:02 AM
I'd be happy if one of you would buy me a 52 inch plasma

Fusion
12-26-02, 06:09 AM
We might cut the "core tick" of Doom from 60hz to 30hz on X-Box if we need the extra performance, because it has no chance of holding 60hz, but the PC version will eventually scale to that with the faster CPUs and graphics cards

Like I KEEP saying :rolleyes: Something HAS to give.

Xbox does NOT compare to modern PCs, end of story.

And all this fixed platform rubbish just doesn't hold water on today's games.
1-2+ years ago, perhaps.

Unreal Championship, is one such example. And really shows that Xbox just isn't as powerful as some seem to think.

UT2003 rarely goes below 60fps at 120x960x32 on even a modest PC today.
Yet Unreal Championship barely holds 30fps at the best of times. And this is a fixed platform. The frame rate is dreadful with 6+ bots on screen.
And you lot think Doom3 will be good :rolleyes:

Personally, I want to see how Xbox Doom3 looks on a 52" plasma TV.... *drools*

Ever heard of TV-Out ? :rolleyes:

StealthHawk
12-26-02, 06:52 AM
Originally posted by Fusion
Like I KEEP saying :rolleyes: Something HAS to give.

he said might not "will" run at a slower internal speed.

Xbox does NOT compare to modern PCs, end of story.

no, it doesn't compare to today's high end PCs.

And all this fixed platform rubbish just doesn't hold water on today's games.
1-2+ years ago, perhaps.

rubbish. coding for one fixed platform will always yield superior performance, period.

Unreal Championship, is one such example. And really shows that Xbox just isn't as powerful as some seem to think.

UT2003 rarely goes below 60fps at 120x960x32 on even a modest PC today.


please send me one of these modest computers, because i don't get 60+ fps in ut2k3 at 1280 with many players on screen at all. and that is with no FSAA and no AF.

i'm not sure what you're considering "modern." last time i checked the majority of people still had DX7 class cards.


so what happened to your insistence that Doom 3 would support 128bit color? you must hve heard it somewhere, right?